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Is free-will an illusion?

Forums: Philosophy, Free Will, Atheism, Philosophy Of Religion, Freewill
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layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 01:29 pm
@Tuna,
If the cloud is dark, then we know the cloud is not bright. Is the fact that it isn't bright also physical information? In other words: does physical information have logical operators in it (like not)?

Well, it seems you're trying to make it into symbolic information, completely ignoring the distinction that is being made. But, yeah, "isn't bright" is also information. It just is what it is, however you want to characterize it.

If I say "It is dark," then I have turned physical information into symbolic information.
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 01:45 pm
@layman,
Quote:

Well, it seems you're trying to make it into symbolic information, completely ignoring the distinction that is being made. But, yeah, "isn't bright" is also information. It just is what it is, however you want to characterize it.

If I say "It is dark," then I have turned physical information into symbolic information.

I was trying to understand the distinction. I'd stick to this: information can be either true or false. That's the common meaning.

Any other usage is unusual and shouldn't be confused with the common usage. I think we agree on that.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 01:52 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
Any other usage is unusual and shouldn't be confused with the common usage. I think we agree on that.


Well, not completely. For reasons already given, I think it's important to distinguish physical information from symbolic information. Without that, a lot of confusion can be generated.

In itself, I would say that physical information cannot be "true or false." That concept doesn't really apply to it, that I can see. As I said, it just "is what it is." Our interpretation of it and/or our effort to express our interpretation in symbols, can be true or false (by which I really mean accurate or inaccurate) though.
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 02:13 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Well, not completely. For reasons already given, I think it's important to distinguish physical information from symbolic information. Without that, a lot of confusion can be generated.

In itself, I would say that physical information cannot be "true or false." That concept doesn't really apply to it, that I can see. As I said, it just "is what it is." Our interpretation of it and/or our effort to express our interpretation in symbols, can be true or false (by which I really mean accurate or inaccurate) though.

I'll take your word for it. Smile
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 07:06 pm
@Tuna,
Pal "Identity" does not refer to agents I don't believe in free will nor in "agents"...you totally missed the point.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 07:14 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I think I know what you meant, Fil.

In physics, in a broad sense, "information" is what makes one thing different from another.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 07:27 pm
@Tuna,
One thing I think all this talk about information shows is this: DNA molecules, Messenger RNA, transcription RNA, amino acids, proteins, etc., are not just "atoms aimlessly bumping into each in the void." They are not acting like balls on a billiard table, passively and inescapably reacting only to external forces imposed on them.

They move and act purposively. They are acting "in concert" to accomplish a desired task. All this supposed mechanistic materialism breaks down at all levels in living things.
Tuna
 
  0  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 07:53 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
"Identity" does not refer to agents I don't believe in free will nor in "agents"...you totally missed the point.

I don't think you meant to direct this to me. I didn't say anything about agents. I had asked about the odd usage of "information."

But that's interesting. You never feel guilt and you never get frustrated with people. Very zen. Don't you feel kind of alienated from others of your species though?
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 07:55 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Messenger RNA, transcription RNA, amino acids, proteins, etc., are not just "atoms aimlessly bumping into each in the void." They are not acting like balls on a billiard table, passively and inescapably reacting only to external forces imposed on them.

They move and act purposively. They are acting "in concert" to accomplish a desired task. All this supposed mechanistic materialism breaks down at all levels in living things.

I think that's a sort of poetic way to look at it. Have you read Robert Rosen's book Life Itself?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:01 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
Have you read Robert Rosen's book Life Itself?


Naw, I aint, Tuna. Any good?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:03 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
I think that's a sort of poetic way to look at it


I'll take that as a compliment, thanks. But I didn't mean it as any kind of metaphor or symbolic allusion. I meant it literally. Prosaically, ya might say.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:05 pm
@layman,
I found it to be pretty thick. I resisted his thesis until the end. Then I realized he's right.

He starts with pointing out that there is no scientific definition of "life." And proceeds to offer one. If you read it, start a thread about it. It's interesting stuff.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:10 pm
@Tuna,

Quote:
I resisted his thesis until the end.


What was his thesis? Anything that can be easily summarized?
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:20 pm
@layman,
Quote:
What was his thesis? Anything that can be easily summarized?

Basically, he proposed that what we mean by "life" can't be captured without thinking in terms of final cause. This distinguishes an organism from a mechanism. When we look at the functions of the parts of an organism, there's a circular pattern of causality.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:23 pm
@Tuna,
OK, sounds good. Wouldn't be hard to sell me on that thesis. I don't it's anything someone like Brian could really comprehend, but I suspect he would never want to read it to begin with.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:24 pm
@layman,
Who's Brian?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:27 pm
@Tuna,
Who's Brian?

He was making a lot of posts in this thread for awhile. Haven't seen him lately, though. A strict Skinnerian determinist.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:32 pm
@layman,
Oh. I think determinism is undeniable. But so is free will. Most arguments either way are marching out the Law of Non-contradiction.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:39 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
Oh. I think determinism is undeniable. But so is free will.


Well, you're not what I'd call a "strict" determinist then, like Brian. Like Skinner, he thinks we humans passively receive "stimuli" from the external environment, with no input of our own, and then "respond" mechanically, like robots (or like billiard balls, in my first analogy).
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:46 pm
@Tuna,
Tuna wrote:

Oh. I think determinism is undeniable. But so is free will. Most arguments either way are marching out the Law of Non-contradiction.


A few questions, if you don't mind.
What's your stance on the Bereitschaftspotential?

Do you have a paricular form of compatibilism that you favor?

Also, would you mind explaining a bit about your position on the Law of Non-contradiction?

Sorry if that's a lot to ask at one time. I don't have a lot of free time to stay engaged in a prolonged exchange right now.
 

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