40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 04:03 pm
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
you no doubt misunderstood and are now misrepresenting him


Yeah, NO ******* POSSIBLE DOUBT ABOUT THAT, is there? Do you even know how presumptuous you sound?

Quote:
Either that or he's a loon.


If he's a loon, then so are you. As I said, he's making some of the same points you are. He just doesn't share your extremely parochial understanding of what "information" is.

You have been repeatedly saying he's wrong, because you interpret him (somehow, God only knows how) to be saying exactly the opposite of what he is saying. Hmmm, where have I seen that before?
puzzledperson
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 04:17 pm
@layman,
Where's the quote with hyperlink and/or full citation from a published work?

Meanwhile, it's time for dinner and some other activities.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 04:32 pm
@puzzledperson,
Quote:
Where's the quote with hyperlink and/or full citation from a published work?


I'm not going to try to run it down, sorry. I have better things to do. It's (who said it) not even relevant to the issues we're discussing.

Look, someone can say that a "blueprint' (gene) is a "piece of paper" (DNA segment). In a very elementary sense they would be "right" insofar as a very simplistic definition goes. That's the kind of definition one might give to a child or neophyte as very basic introduction to terminology.

But if some one insisted that that's ALL it is, he would be dead wrong. That is NOT the essence of what a blueprint IS. You might just as well say that an automobile engine is just a piece of metal.

If that's too subtle or "confusing" for you to understand, then we certainly aren't going to get anywhere trying to discuss it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 05:11 pm
Here's one explanation of what a gene "is"

Quote:
Q.: What does DNA do in my body?

A." Genes are made up of DNA. Genes give your body instructions—much like a blueprint or a recipe—for everything it needs to do to grow, develop, and live. One example is that genes give your body instructions for making proteins.

https://www.my46.org/intro/what-does-dna-do-in-my-body

Note that his does not confuse the function of genes (giving instructions) with what they are "made of." "Instructions" are a part of what I would call "information."

Another explanation:

Quote:
a molecule called deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), which contains the biological instructions that make each species unique. DNA, along with the instructions it contains, is passed from adult organisms to their offspring during reproduction....To carry out these functions, DNA sequences must be converted into messages that can be used to produce proteins, which are the complex molecules that do most of the work in our bodies.


https://www.genome.gov/25520880

Note that DNA is said here to "contain information." But it is not THE information. The "information" is "transmitted" via "messages" it says (as I said). Neither the message, nor the "thing" (DNA molecule) is the information. In terms of ultimate function, significance, and importance, DNA is all about information, not molecules.

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2015 05:51 pm
One last quotation pertaining to the relationship between (1) information (2) a "reader" of that information (3) the creation of a "message" and (4) the receipt and use of that information by the recipient of the "message:"

Quote:
How are DNA sequences used to make proteins?

DNA's instructions are used to make proteins in a two-step process. First, enzymes read the information in a DNA molecule and transcribe it into an intermediary molecule called messenger ribonucleic acid, or mRNA.

Next, the information contained in the mRNA molecule is translated into the "language" of amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins. This language tells the cell's protein-making machinery the precise order in which to link the amino acids to produce a specific protein. This is a major task because there are 20 types of amino acids, which can be placed in many different orders to form a wide variety of proteins.


https://www.genome.gov/25520880

Note that the information is there, independently of any "message" being made out of it. Neither a successful or failed attempt to transmit that information to a recipient alters that.


0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2015 11:09 am
@puzzledperson,
The point the biologist was making was fairly simple. Let's say you think you have discovered the "gene" which results in blue eyes. Let's say that gene is associated with a particular molecule. Talking loosely and figuratively people will say the "gene" causes blue eyes. They do this while associating the gene with a molecule. They start thinking that the molecule causes blue eyes.

It doesn't. The molecule, as such, causes NOTHING. It is the information carried by the molecule which causes blue eyes, not the molecule itself. But people confuse themselves by failing to make the distinction.

One more time: What "causes" blue eyes is the information, not the molecule. It is a mistake to say or think that the molecule is the information. It is merely the messenger which carries the information, not the information itself.

If you want to call the "cause" of blue eyes, the "gene," then you are calling the information the gene, NOT the molecule.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2015 05:01 pm
Pp is confusing information with mental, symbolic representation of information. The world is full of information.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 08:55 am
Any object in our Universe deals, contains, processes, information, period.
Information is not a distant awkard abstraction but the "physical" outcome of concrete intructions and funtions operating in the world. The difference of states of affairs between object in configuration A and in configuration B a few moments later is a physical de facto change in information states. If anything information is not only in everything but literally it IS everything !

There is no IDENTITY without information, no thing at all...
Tuna
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 09:52 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Any object in our Universe deals, contains, processes, information, period.
Information is not a distant awkard abstraction but the "physical" outcome of concrete intructions and funtions operating in the world. The difference of states of affairs between object in configuration A and in configuration B a few moments later is a physical de facto change in information states. If anything information is not only in everything but literally it IS everything !

There is no IDENTITY without information, no thing at all...

Is there a special definition of "information" here? Otherwise this is an idealistic perspective and possibly solipsistic.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 11:11 am
@Tuna,
Quote:
Is there a special definition of "information" here?

He can take his pick, eh, Tuna?

Quote:

What is Information?

A vast number of definitions of information have been proposed in widely different contexts. These include definitions from genetics, biology, psychology, linguistics, information technology, library science, literary interpretation, cultural studies, quantum physics, thermodynamics, and philosophy. In most cases, the proposed definitions have little applicability beyond the specialized topic of study....

The term physical information is used here for the concept that any physical non-uniformity, difference, or distinction is information. [comment: not to be confused with so-called "symbolic information"]

Physicists often use the term information to indicate conditions in the universe that do not involve symbols, media, and an interpretational infrastructure. For example, the geologic strata in rocks and sediments indicate the geological history of an area. One can argue that these strata are information.

The common, everyday use of the term information typically refers to some form of symbolic information. Dictionary definitions of information focus on knowledge, facts, and data. These definitions imply symbolic information. Physical information is more specialized and technical, and refers to the concept of information that is generally assumed with the mathematical models of information used in physics


http://science.jeksite.org/info1/pages/page2.htm

neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 11:57 am
@layman,
A lot like trying to define evidence, eh?
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:01 pm
@layman,
I see. As jargon goes, it looks like a poor choice to me. Where there is no possibility of false information, there is no information at all. The issue isn't symbolism. It's truth.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:04 pm
@Tuna,
This whole discussion of "what is information," may have some bearing on the notion of free will, etc (see my next post), but it's kinda a sidetrack. To the extent that one's ontological presumptions influence (and perhaps even dictate) one's conclusion about free will, it's indirectly relevant

Another excerpt from the same source comports with how I was defining "information" in my "island" post.

Quote:
According to the concept of symbolic information described here, a book is symbolic information because it was created by a living being specifically to symbolically represent certain conditions and ideas. Symbolic information is based on the creation of symbols in media, not whether the symbols are actually being perceived or used at a given point in time. It appears to me that symbolic information is the most important concept for understanding information processing in living systems.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:06 pm
@layman,
This excerpt provides a rough distinction between so-called "physical" and "symbolic" information. But here such concepts as "intention" and "creativity" also enter the arena:

Quote:
Information and Intentionality

In discussing the concept of information in biology, John Maynard Smith (2010) identified two different contexts for the term information. He noted that a cloud provides information about the weather, but the cloud does not have the purpose of providing information about the weather. On the other hand, a weather forecast has the specific purpose of providing information about the weather. He described the weather forecast as information having “intentionality,” while the information associated with a cloud does not have intentionality. He identified the information in biology has having intentionality.

He also recognized the symbolic, creative nature of the intentional information in biology. “I think that it is the symbolic nature of molecular biology that makes possible an indefinitely large number of biological forms” (Marynard Smith, 2010, p. 133). His overall conclusions were similar to the concepts of physical and symbolic information described here, although he provided little consideration of the interpretational infrastructure or the disproportionate responses to symbols
.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:23 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
As jargon goes, it looks like a poor choice to me. Where there is no possibility of false information, there is no information at all.


Not sure why you would say it can't be false. At least not as used in the "everday" sense. From above:

Quote:
The common, everyday use of the term information typically refers to some form of symbolic information. Dictionary definitions of information focus on knowledge, facts, and data. These definitions imply symbolic information
.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:29 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Another excerpt from the same source comports with how I was defining "information" in my "island" post.


For PP: Actually, as I said before, it was intended to (1) make the distinction between physical and symbolic information, and then to (2) distinguish the symbolic information itself from the material carrier, transmission, and interpretation thereof.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:44 pm
@layman,
When I think of the word "informative" in a philosophical context, I think of Wittgenstein. It's a property of statements. It can't be a property of clouds. Clouds do not strictly speaking provide information. Any number of propositions about a cloud or about the implications of a cloud can be informative.

Non-propositional information is an odd idea. What would be a specific example of it?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:53 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Pp is confusing information with mental, symbolic representation of information. The world is full of information.


Without elaborating, Ollie was making the distinction between physical and symbolic information with this post.

Once again quoting the article posted before:

Quote:
Scientific discussions of information frequently fail to distinguish between symbolic and physical information. This oversight too often results in (a) attributing properties of symbolic information processing and life to nonliving processes, (b) an inadequate appreciation of the active role and complexity of the interpretational infrastructure, and (c) not recognizing the creative aspects of symbolic information processing.


"(a) attributing properties of symbolic information processing and life to nonliving processes,"--This is essentially what happens when someone says a gene (meaning molecule) causes, e.g., blue eyes. If you use "gene" in that way, you are not referring to a molecule. You are referring to symbolic (not physical) information.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 12:56 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
Non-propositional information is an odd idea. What would be a specific example of it?


If I understand your question, then I think several examples have been given. Non-symbolic (i.e. "physical") information. Like the "fact" that a cloud is "dark."
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Nov, 2015 01:23 pm
@layman,
Quote:
If I understand your question, then I think several examples have been given. Non-symbolic (i.e. "physical") information. Like the "fact" that a cloud is "dark."

If the cloud is dark, then we know the cloud is not bright. Is the fact that it isn't bright also physical information? In other words: does physical information have logical operators in it (like not)?
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.13 seconds on 12/22/2024 at 08:11:55