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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 11:39 pm
@ughaibu,
Agent and action both are events yes for that matter given you opted for real numbers we can use a number to describe an agent as an event and a number for the willing action as another event...Events can and should be accounted if you are to use the term cause when establishing will belongs to someone ! Of course you are well aware of this so why the **** are you complaining again ????
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 11:47 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Events can and should be accounted if you are to use the term cause when establishing will belongs to someone !
But I haven't, have I? In any case, none of this is relevant to the argument establishing that mathematical randomness doesn't preclude free will.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 11:48 pm
@ughaibu,
So now you are saying that will doesn't belong to someone ? is that it that you haven't said ???
I cannot see how on hell an infinite amount of events from where we could establish true randomness can be fitted between an agent described as an event in a chain of events and his correlated caused willed action, given an agent has a limited amount of life...any non truly infinite chain of real numbers can be translated into a discrete finite chain of whole numbers from where causation could be deducted...but hell given you had to recur to real numbers to say that mathematical randomness does not preclude free will if we really are to use that argument we ought to look at infinity between infinity's which is what real numbers bottom line intend and refer to...
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 11:57 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
So now you are saying that will doesn't belong to someone ? is that it that you haven't said ???
What the **** are you talking about? Quote the relevant parts of my post and offer some king of logically structured response. I have had enough of trying to construct meanings from your garbled rambling.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 12:04 am
@ughaibu,
Re read ! Hell I am Portuguese I have to come up with complex argumentation and translate it and revising what has been written...naturally I must edit !
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 12:17 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
So now you are saying that will doesn't belong to someone ? is that it that you haven't said ???
I cannot see how on hell an infinite amount of events from where we could establish true randomness can be fitted between an agent described as an event in a chain of events and his correlated caused willed action, given an agent has a limited amount of life...any non truly infinite chain of real numbers can be translated into a discrete finite chain of whole numbers from where causation could be deducted...but hell given you had to recur to real numbers to say that mathematical randomness does not preclude free will if we really are to use that argument we ought to look at infinity between infinity's which is what real numbers bottom line intend and refer to...
I've still no idea of how any of this is supposed to matter to me, even assuming that it can be interpreted sensibly.
1) do you understand that classical mathematics entails that given the prefix of a real number, the probability of the continued expansion of that number being computable, is zero?
2) do you understand that any sequence, including the expansion of a real number, which cannot be computed by any algorithm of length shorter than itself, is by definition mathematically random?
3) do you understand that we can construct the prefix of a real number from a willed action, for example, from the structure of this post?
4) do you understand that this means, by direct observation, that willed actions are compatible with prefixes of real numbers?
5) do you understand that this entails that willed actions are compatible with mathematical randomness?
If you understand all of the above, then you should be able to follow the argument and offer a lucid reply. If not, you will be unable to meaningfully reply.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 12:23 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
3) do you understand that we can construct the prefix of a real number from a willed action, for example, from the structure of this post?
That you can you can, symbolically using them, but you also can reverse that construction into a whole number because you real number sequence is not infinite, nor thus it intend to refer to infinity's between infinity's...you are misusing real numbers in here and forcing randomness to describe a process which needs not be described through real numbers...

My argument is fair plain and simple, any person should be able to get it even you !
If we were sure reality is random which we aren't, the whole issue of infinity would be a damn impediment to the free will justification through randomness indeed !
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 12:32 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
you also can reverse that construction into a whole number because you real number sequence is not infinite
We construct the prefix of a real number. You apparently do not understand the argument.
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
If we were sure reality is random which we aren't, the whole issue of infinity would be a damn impediment to free will argument with randomness indeed !
But I haven't said that "reality is random", I haven't even defined what that would mean, and neither have you. And if you think that mathematical randomness is an impediment to free will, then you definitely haven't understood my argument.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 12:42 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
And if you think that mathematical randomness is an impediment to free will, then you definitely haven't understood my argument.

So you claim, either you clarify, not just to me but I bet to a great deal of people or you are just muddling the waters...I gave you a clear account on why, I specifically mentioned infinity, which is to my view what true randomness requires no less, and that works as an impediment to a chain of causation in an agent with a finite amount of time and his will !
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 03:23 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Quote:
And if you think that mathematical randomness is an impediment to free will, then you definitely haven't understood my argument.
So you claim, either you clarify, not just to me but I bet to a great deal of people or you are just muddling the waters
You claim that there can be no free will in a nondetermined world, because such a world is random. This claim fails for reasons that have been given:
1) a determined world is fully describable mathematically, this means that in a determined world there is no mathematical randomness. So, if there is any mathematical randomness, even only one thing at one time, then the world is not determined. In short, a nondetermined world need not be random in any way other than mathematically and it need not be fully or even noticeably mathematically random.
2) we can demonstrate willed actions which can be mapped to digits to form the prefix of a real number. The probability of the continued expansion of such a number being mathematically random is one. But, we can continue to expand the prefix of that number by mapping digits to our willed actions. In short, willed actions are not incompatible with mathematical randomness.
So, even if nondeterminism implied full mathematical randomness, that randomness would not be an impediment to free will.
I realise that this is repetition, rather than clarification, but I don't see how to make this any clearer or simpler.
imans
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 03:42 am
exactly, on the contrary the more truth exist the more then free will is the fact

truth cant b a matter of any form, what is true is absolutely and what is absolutely is abstraction of any possible object and objectives, so if forms exist or reality is objectively alive then it is free of truth by surely not being truth freedom

truth by definition is the effect source of possible existence growth so the will to take responsability of being in the certainty of free possessions then since truth is the constant existence reasons

0 Replies
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 08:03 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
In classical mathematics, the uncountability of the reals ensures that the probability of the expansion of a real number being computable, is zero. We can easily construct the prefix of a real number as an incidental consequence of a willed action. As the probability of the continued expansion of that number being computable is zero, the probability of it being mathematically random is one. This clearly illustrates that mathematical randomness does not conflict with willed actions.
You can reject classical mathematics, but that rather knocks out any appeal to science or infinities. Otherwise, you can just carry on believing and ignore yet another argument.


I am not sure what you mean by prefix of a real number. I am not sure what you mean by expansion of a real number. And give me a link to a suitable definition of mathematical randomness.
0 Replies
 
tomr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 08:38 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
2) we can demonstrate willed actions which can be mapped to digits to form the prefix of a real number. The probability of the continued expansion of such a number being mathematically random is one. But, we can continue to expand the prefix of that number by mapping digits to our willed actions. In short, willed actions are not incompatible with mathematical randomness.


My best guess at what you are describing from your definition is that someone is picking a number at will from a set of 10 numbers the digits {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9} and doing this infinitely so that an infinitely long real number is created such as 31415926.... This process of growing the number with each selection from the set of digits is what you refer to as expansion. The prefix would be the overall form this number would take( I am not sure).

But if I am right at this point. Then we state that this number is mathematically random by definition. Or we say that the probability of it being mathematically random is 100%. So we have defined mathematical randomness based on the selection process of a human being. This definition assumes nothing about how a human being makes selections. And therefore it does not require or prohibit a free-willed or a deterministic process.
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:07 am
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
But if I am right at this point.
You're not.
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:39 am
@ughaibu,
So you can't give a definition of prefix here. You are going to make me search through all your posts to find it.
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:47 am
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
So you can't give a definition of prefix here.
Presumably you're familiar with the word, so I don't see how the meaning cannot be immediately obvious to you.
tomr wrote:
You are going to make me search through all your posts to find it.
There are links to nine posts, two of which are on this thread. In other words, you have at most seven posts to read.
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:50 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
If we construct the prefix of a real number, by taking my sentences for today and assigning a zero to those containing an even number of letters and a one to those with an odd number, we have a string for which the continuation has a zero probability of being computable. If determinism were true, then Laplace's demon would, in principle, be able to compute the continuation of this string, but that would mean computing an uncomputable number, therefore determinism is false.


The only thing I can find for prefix isn't a definition. It is a specific case of how one is made. This argument is ridiculus by the way.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 09:56 am
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
This argument is ridiculus by the way.
Forget about the argument, on this thread all we're concerned about is that mathematical randomness is not incompatible with free will.
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 10:04 am
@ughaibu,
Quote:
Presumably you're familiar with the word, so I don't see how the meaning cannot be immediately obvious to you.


So you mean a prefix as something that comes before a base word. So I am supposed to take the prefix in this case to be the number selected from the set {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}->6 and this number is placed in the sequence 78999-6 at the beginning of the sequence.

Why can't you just explain this. What are you afraid of? You are obviously breaking the train of my argument by wasting time making me try to guess at the specific meaning of you have for prefix in the context of mathematical randomness. As if everything you say has been clear. Give me a break.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Nov, 2012 10:09 am
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
So I am supposed to take the prefix in this case to be the number selected from the set {0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9}->6 and this number is placed in the sequence 78999-6 at the beginning of the sequence.
Of course not!
tomr wrote:
Why can't you just explain this.
You've just quoted a full explanation in your post before this one I'm now replying to. I am not interested enough in whether you understand this or not, to keep spelling it out. It's simple and it has been explained, several times.
0 Replies
 
 

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