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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:01 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Now we got to the point of open lies and deliberate misinforming people who aren't all to familiar with the problem by narrowing definitions to one specific perspective.
Is this comment about my post? If so, be specific. Your refusal to quote posts clearly is a serious impediment to clear communication.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:15 pm
Quote:
Determinism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Determinism is a philosophy stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. Different versions of this theory depend upon various alleged connections, and interdependencies of things and events, asserting that these hold without exception. Deterministic theories throughout the history of philosophy have sprung from diverse motives and considerations, some of which overlap. They can be understood in relation to their historical significance and alternative theories. Some forms of determinism can be tested empirically with ideas stemming from physics and the philosophy of physics. The opposite of determinism is some kind of indeterminism (otherwise called nondeterminism). Determinism is often contrasted with free will.[citation needed]

Determinism is often taken to mean simply causal determinism: an idea known in physics as cause-and-effect. It is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is completely determined by prior states. This can be distinguished from other varieties of determinism mentioned below. Other debates often concern the scope of determined systems, with some maintaining that the entire universe (or multiverse) is a single determinate system and others identifying other more limited determinate systems.[clarification needed] Within numerous historical debates, many varieties and philosophical positions on the subject of determinism exist. This includes debates concerning human action and free will, where opinions might be sorted as compatibilistic and incompatibilistic.

Determinism should not be confused with self-determination of human actions by reasons, motives, and desires. Determinism rarely requires that perfect prediction be practically possible – only prediction in theory.
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:20 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
If you have some point, what the hell is it? Quoting Wikipedia and sticking up links to Youtube is not providing arguments, or anything else worthwhile. If you have something to say, say it.
Enzo
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:23 pm
@ughaibu,
People have tried, you just turn your head the other way and then come back expecting everyone to change their standpoint into what you believe.
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:24 pm
@Enzo,
Enzo wrote:
People have tried, you just turn your head the other way and then come back expecting everyone to change their standpoint into what you believe.
Tried what?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:28 pm
@Enzo,
While I can and will debate people who disagree with me and be thankful for such an opportunity I don't and won't debate dishonest folk...would be losing mine and others peoples time. Still I will provide well known sources of information if that can help clarify what some deliberately and shamelessly try to manipulate.

Check Sam Harris video really good for a change... Wink
0 Replies
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:32 pm
@ughaibu,
Quote:
c) causality generally requires ordered pairs such that the cause precedes, in time, the effect, but determinism requires a reversible world such that it is unimportant in which order time progresses


Where do you come up with this stuff? Where is the analysis/reasoning that leads you to the conclusion that determinism requires a reversible world. It certainly does not. Time can run one way and only one way and determinism will hold up just fine. It is constantly out of the blue nonsense with you.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:36 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Determinism is often taken to mean simply causal determinism: an idea known in physics as cause-and-effect.
1) laws of physics, generally, are reversible, but causes either precede or are simultaneous to their effects. You need to deal with this, not just stick up quotes.
2) this is a philosophy discussion board, the standard authority is not Wikipedia, it is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, which publishes peer reviewed articles authored by acknowledged experts in the relevant field: When the editors of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy asked me to write the entry on determinism, I found that the title was to be “Causal determinism”. I therefore felt obliged to point out in the opening paragraph that determinism actually has little or nothing to do with causation; for the philosophical tradition has it all wrong. What I hope to show in this paper is that, in fact, in a complex world such as the one we inhabit, determinism and genuine causality are probably incompatible with each other. http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/2071/
I have explained to you, in quite simple terms, why determinism and causality are distinct notions. You need to actually deal with what I've written, not just quote people who disagree with me for **** knows what unstated reason.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:38 pm
@tomr,
He indirectly probably is referring to concepts like the arrow of time atomic decay the 2 law of thermodynamic and stuff like that...of course evidently he still is neglecting proper, even if speculative, explanation for the highly orderly state of the Universe when Big Bang started which quite obviously requires justification...so again while he almost seams to have a point in there on a closer look he has baloney as expected...
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:45 pm
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
Quote:
c) causality generally requires ordered pairs such that the cause precedes, in time, the effect, but determinism requires a reversible world such that it is unimportant in which order time progresses
Where do you come up with this stuff? Where is the analysis/reasoning that leads you to the conclusion that determinism requires a reversible world. It certaintly does not. Time can run one way and only one way and determinism will hold up just fine. It is constantly out of the blue nonsense with you.
There is nothing particularly controversial about this. If you were to educate yourself about the topic you'd be aware of the fact, and as you've been arguing the same position for years, I can't imagine why you haven't educated yourself on the topic.
The first serious blow for those who thought that determinism was entailed by Newtonian physics was Loschmidt's paradox, it's an irreversibility problem, look it up. Huw Price has written a book specifically arguing that all modern physics is reversible, in order to support determinism, Time's Arrow and Archimedes' Point, get it from your library. In any case, that reversibility is required by determinism is quite easy to figure out, a determined world is fully mathematically describable and no point in time or space can be privileged, think about it.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 08:51 pm
@ughaibu,
Recurring to basic logic since the Universe didn't cause itself you ought to get out of this Universe to disprove causal determinism !
(One sentence is enough to put a KO on a dinosaur like you !)
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:00 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Recurring to basic logic since the Universe didn't cause itself you ought to get out of this Universe to disprove causal determinism !
(One sentence is enough to put a KO on a dinosaur like you !)
If anyone thinks that the above constitutes an argument, is an example of someone "trying" or is in any other way a post that has content that I should address, please reword it in a comprehensible form so that I have some idea of what the author wants to get at.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:05 pm
@ughaibu,
Weather the Universe is or is not reversible mathematically depends on knowing what gave birth to the Universe and how it operates, the observation of the 2 law of thermodynamics is insufficient to claim that the arrow of time is totally irreversible...
I am still waiting for a justification on the highly orderly state of the Universe at the time of big bang given the the 2 law of thermodynamics...why did it start from an highly ordered configuration and how do you account for that ?

I said it once and I will repeat it now, what I dislike in your attitude is that you give for granted what is being debated right now, you use science but just up to where one calls you on your claims, and never give a full picture on the actual panorama of the debate...
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:19 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Weather the Universe is or is not reversible mathematically depends on knowing what gave birth to the Universe and how it operates
In that case, whether or not we live in a determined world "depends on knowing what gave birth to the Universe and how it operates". So, as you appear to be a determinist, what gave birth to the universe and how does it operate?
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
I am still waiting for a justification on the highly orderly state of the Universe at the time of big bang given the the 2 law of thermodynamics
Waiting for me to give one? Why? I haven't said anything about the matter. On the other hand, there are plenty of things which I have said, some of them several times, but to which you have offered no lucid response. So, get in the queue.
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
why did it start from an highly ordered configuration and how do you account for that ?
Okay, for the sake of argument I'll accept realism about the big bang and your implicit contention that the universe began then, and I have no account for the highly ordered, in thermodynamic terms, state. So what? What is your argument?

tomr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:20 pm
@ughaibu,
Quote:
In any case, that reversibility is required by determinism is quite easy to figure out, a determined world is fully mathematically describable and no point in time or space can be privileged, think about it.


Reversing a process is not reversing time. Time can always be based off the speed of light. And nothing in physics says light can be put back into a light bulb. In principle reversing some thermodynamic process like the compression of a gas in a cylinder is therefore not reversing time. All you are doing is reversing the position of atoms back to some initial configuration, which can only be done in our imaginations.

Why can't a direction in time be privileged. One clearly is. Mathematically the equations of physics are intended to work with advancing time. But we can run the equations in reverse and this may represent a past event. Just because we can run the equations in reverse does not mean that we are describing how the universe can run backwards by doing so. There is no law that states the direction of time cannot be "privileged". And until there is evidence of light being shot back into lightbulbs we should not assume anything else.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:26 pm
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
Just because we can run the equations in reverse does not mean that we are describing how the universe works by doing so.
So, you reject big bang cosmology?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:27 pm
@ughaibu,
My point is that you haven't shown without any shred of doubt that the Universe is not reversible mathematically and with it the contention against causal determinism...given enough time there's no reason to believe an highly orderly reconfiguration of the particles in the universe wont occur again which if happening would actually reverse the commonly observable effects of the 2 law of thermodynamics and literally bring order out of chaos...but more, even if such event didn't occur with the cyclic big bounce theory for how the Universe operates you would have to know how the hypothetical Multiverse operates to show that causal determinism is or is not the case since with the Universe alone you don't have all the relevant justifying data to make such claim !
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:31 pm
@tomr,
You don't even need to go that way since he cannot prove what he is claiming...everybody would knew it by now...that would be big news indeed...in fact the opposite is admitted just by looking for big bang itself, such highly orderly state requires justification and nobody as done anything else but admitting that some reconfiguration must be able to occur contrary to the 2 law of thermodynamics...
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:43 pm
@ughaibu,
Quote:
But we can run the equations in reverse and this may represent a past event. Just because we can run the equations in reverse does not mean that we are describing how the universe can run backwards by doing so.


Ughaibu wrote:
So, you reject big bang cosmology?


I say above running the equations in reverse can represent past events. So nothing I have said goes against a theory of a Big Bang. What I intended by the second sentence in my quote is that putting the equations in rewind does not mean time can actually do that. Just like you can watch a video and rewind it. Should we now assume it is possible to reverse time because the video did it (or the equations did it). No of course not.

I personally do not fully trust the big bang hypothesis. It seems like an incredibly complex calculation that would only work if all the relevant equations we have now are 100% correct.
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Nov, 2012 09:46 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
My point is that you haven't shown without any shred of doubt that the Universe is not reversible mathematically
Did I attempt to show that? If so, quote the post. The only point that I remember making about this concerns the distinction between causality and determinism. Causes precede effects, that means the notion of causality involves temporally ordered pairs, it is irreversible. Why don't you quote the ******* posts, then you'd stand a chance of keeping track of what your talking about.
 

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