Reported Speech

@dalehileman,

Quote:

No JTT as a matter of fact the plural is used colloquially applying to singular matters

That's precisely the point I was making to Contrex in Post: # 5,089,085, Dale. He pretends to be an English teacher. He actually takes money from students, definitely under false pretenses.

1 Reply

@JTT,

@dalehileman,
Quote:
..........colloquially applying to singular matters

Quote:

That's precisely the point I was making to Contrex......

Aha now I see

Isn’t it possible however that Con is fully aware of the usage but is merely pointing out how strange it might sound to a UEASL

Incidentally that’s Using English as Second Language for which there’s apparently no compact synonym

Unless you like “anglophone” which however doesn’t quite fit

http://onelook.com/?w=*&loc=revfp2&clue=english+as+a+second+language

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

Con thanks for that word. Even as an erstwhile writer I had never really understood the term

It’s not everyday......

http://onelook.com/?w=camp&ls=a

Partly this...

Quote:

considered amusing because of its consciously pretentious showiness or outlandishness

and partly this...

Quote:

effeminate, campy, camped up, poncy

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@dalehileman,

Quote:

Isn’t it possible however that Con is fully aware of the usage but is merely pointing out how strange it might sound to a UEASL

The use was fine for Con [apt choice for his name] when he first answered, Dale.

He said, "Both are OK, but I prefer the first".

That's not reported speech. It's a direct quote.

Reported: [either]

1. He said that both are OK, but that he prefers the first".

2. 1. He said that both were OK, but that he preferred the first".

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:
Isn’t it possible however that Con is fully aware of the usage but is merely pointing out how strange it might sound to a UEASL

Quote:

The use was fine for Con [apt choice for his name] when he first answered, Dale. He said, "Both are OK, but I prefer the first".

For the benefit of anyone trying to follow the discussion, here both:

Quote:

My teacher said that we must study hard. OR
My teacher said that we had to study hard.

Quote:

That's not reported speech. It's a direct quote.

Don’t exactly understand. To be a direct quote wouldn’t quotation marks be required

Quote:

Reported: [either]

1. He said that both are OK, but that he prefers the first".
2. 1. He said that both were OK, but that he preferred the first".

Ora I readily concede I don’t understand the highly-technical grammatical. But is the use of your single quote mark at the end of the sentence of some significance to the distinction

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Quote:

Don’t exactly understand. To be a direct quote wouldn’t quotation marks be required

===========
He said, "Both are OK, but I prefer the first".

That's not reported speech. It's a direct quote.

==========

There are quotes, Dale.

Quote:

Ora I readily concede I don’t understand the highly-technical grammatical.

Actually, you do, Dale. You just don't consciously understand, in the sense of being able to explain the exceedingly difficult grammar that is found in language.

Think about it for a second. A native child, by age five, knows all this incredibly complex stuff that experts can't always adequately explain. ESL/EFLs study grammar for years and they still produce unnatural language.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

He said, "Both are OK, but I prefer the first".
That's not reported speech. It's a direct quote.

Thanks JTT but as I said the technicalities entirely escape me. However my reaction--for what it’s worth—

"He said, 'Both are OK, but I prefer the first’ " doesn’t strike me as a direct quote. I would think only "Both are OK, but I prefer the first” is the direct quote

But as I mentioned I have to take your word since all the detail escapes me

Quote:
Ora I readily concede I don’t understand the highly-technical grammatical.

Quote:

Actually, you do, Dale. You just don't consciously understand,

JTT you flatter me

1 Reply

In the staffroom, the teacher was talking to her colleagues about the new curriculum due to be introduced at the start of the following term. She felt that all staff members needed to revise thorougly. "We must study hard." she said.

The teacher said that she and her colleagues must study hard.

The teacher addressed the class. "We must study hard." she said.

The teacher told the class that they needed to study hard.

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

Quote:

"He said, 'Both are OK, but I prefer the first’ " doesn’t strike me as a direct quote. I would think only "Both are OK, but I prefer the first” is the direct quote

If you'll check Post: # 5,094,694 you'll see that what I wrote was exactly what you wrote in the 2nd quote. I'm not sure how that extra single quote ['] ever got involved.

Quote:

But as I mentioned I have to take your word since all the detail escapes me

But that's my point, Dale, though you seemed to have missed it. You do know all the details of grammar. If you didn't you wouldn't be able to function in daily life.

Saying you don't know how grammar works is akin to saying you don't know how to breathe or walk because you can't describe the body mechanisms that effectuate breathing and walking.

0 Replies

@contrex,

Whatever has come over you, C? You've actually considered discussing a language issue. Smile

Quote:

In the staffroom, the teacher was talking to her colleagues about the new curriculum due to be introduced at the start of the following term. She felt that all staff members needed to revise thorougly. "We must study hard." she said ...

The teacher addressed the class. "We must study hard." she said.

A. The teacher told the class that they needed to study hard.

Quote:

My teacher said, "We must study hard."

In reported speech, which of the following sentences is correct?

B1. My teacher said that we must study hard. OR
B2. My teacher said that we had to study hard.

And you made a pretty good point to boot. But you failed to make it clear who was doing the reporting. In your example, which I've marked A., it sounds as if the person reporting isn't a member of the class.

In the original examples, which I've marked B1. & B2. it sounds like the reporter of the speech is a member of the class.

Wouldn't it just be more honest of you to allow that you forgot the very natural use of singular 'we'?

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The point I was trying to make was that in transforming direct quotation into reported speech, context is everything. It's not just a question of implementing a formula or a recipe. Language is neither algebra nor Lego. Was the teacher addressing a class? Was she talking to a group of her peers? We just don't know. If she was addressing a class, then possibly the singular 'we' can be assumed. Shorn of context, many direct quotations will be difficult to render into reported speech. "It's broken!" said John. What shall we suggest? "John said that something was broken"?

1 Reply

@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

Tang there’s a slight difference in meaning.
"My teacher said that we must study hard” means she always wants us to, whereas

"My teacher said that we had to study hard.” could imply that over a period of time we had to do so in order
to meet some sort of goal but maybe now any progress achieved back then means that today we might slack off a bit

Yes; Dale is right.

dalehileman wrote:

By the way not sure what you mean by “reported speech” as it isn't colloquial

Ignore post #929 above as
a2k software doesn’t let you delete an entire inadvertent posting

I have never found that to be a problem.

David

1 Reply

@contrex,

Quote:

Shorn of context, many direct quotations will be difficult to render into reported speech. "It's broken!" said John. What shall we suggest? "John said that something was broken"?

Some more excellent points regarding context, C. Context is important.

But, having said that, not all speech has to be transparent to all that come across it. Most speakers are aware of their listeners background knowledge and they include the necessary components within the reported speech.

For

"It's broken!", said John.

what you and I know about what it is isn't crucial to a report for someone who has a greater grasp of the situation.

Having heard nothing more than the above, I can faithfully report,

John said that it's broken.

or equally,

John said that it was broken.

As a native speaker, my "duty" to others when it comes to reported speech is that I reflect that I am not directly quoting him. I am saying that I'm paraphrasing him and if there is further clarification needed, then it should garnered from John himself.

That is what the backshift in reported speech means to native speakers. It has nothing to do with matching tenses with a reporting verb, in this case, 'said'.

A: I'm going to go to the store.

B: [slightly out of earshot of A, to C] What did A say, C?

C: She said that she was going to go to the store.

I can choose to use either "was" or "is" in my report. But A is still standing there. There's no past action to report because no past action has taken place.
Again, the use of the past tense FORM has nothing whatsoever to do with denoting a real past action.

The only thing it signals is "I'm putting you the listener on notice that I am not offering these words as the exact words that came from the mouth of the speaker".

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

dalehileman wrote:
Tang there’s a slight difference in meaning.
"My teacher said that we must study hard” means she always wants us to, whereas

"My teacher said that we had to study hard.” could imply that over a period of time we had to do so in order
to meet some sort of goal but maybe now any progress achieved back then means that today we might slack off a bit

Quote:

Yes; Dale is right.

Reviewing this, I have to agree that Dale's idea has some tiny measure of merit, [note the underlined words "could imply"] This would ONLY apply if the situation WAS NOT being controlled by the parameters set by the OP, MsTan, wherein she SPECIFICALLY asked about REPORTED SPEECH.

Quote:

MsTan: In reported speech, which of the following sentences is correct?

My teacher said that we must study hard. OR
My teacher said that we had to study hard.

With that, reported speech, and the immediate context in mind, it makes Dale's ideas, repeated by OmSigDavid, completely impossible as a potential gloss.

[gloss - the way in which someone understands or explains something
The newspapers all gave their own gloss on the president's offer.
McMillan Dictionary]

As usual, OmSig doesn't have the foggiest notion about the hows and whys of English grammar. Note his fabulous supporting comments.

Quote:

dalehileman wrote:

Ignore post #929 above as
a2k software doesn’t let you delete an entire inadvertent posting

Quote:

I have never found that to be a problem.

It's a time based issue, Dave, much as the language issue, above, is. Both little things and huge things often seem to escape your notice.

0 Replies

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