Difference in meaning between the sentences

@InfraBlue,

Quote:

"I heard the people sang" is ambiguous, and in and of itself, written as it is, it is a sentence fragment.

So which are we to take as your irrefutable proof that the sentence is ungrammatical, Infra, the fact that it is ambiguous or that it is a [music with deep dark ominous tones] sentence fragment.

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Well yeah, if you're writing dialog.

My, but that was a quick retraction. I don't suspect that you'll now take the time to explain your previous judgments.

Quote:

Yeah, he can be anal about his prescriptive anti-prescriptivism.

That's as ignorant as saying that someone is prescriptive about debunking phrenology or flat earth theories.

Is that all they ever taught you in US grammar classes, sentence fragments and the nonsense about singular they/their/them?

Sentence fragments ARE NOT UNGRAMMATICAL!

To those idiots who were your grammar teachers, everything was ungrammatical. It was a down and dirty response to anything that they had no clue about, which, judging from so many of the responses, was pretty much everything they taught.

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@tanguatlay,

tanguatlay wrote:

1. I heard the people sing.
2. I heard the people sang.

Thanks to all the forum members who have responded to my post.

I was confused by 'the people'. If I used 'they' or 'them' instead, both sentences would be clearly grammatically correct.

1. I heard them sing. (Here 'sang' would not work.)
2. I heard (that) they sang. (In this case, 'sang' is the correct verb with 'that' being optional.)

Correct me if I am wrong in my deduction.

Thanks.

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@tanguatlay,

You are correct.

"The people" is quite a common usage, referring in general to a large group or even a nation.

There is a line from Les Miserables the musical which uses it in this way: it refers to "the people" in the sense of a political movement

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing a song of angry men?
It is the music of a people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!

1 Reply

@McTag,

You could also look at The Gettysburg Address, a famous speech by a former American President

Quote:

that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

1 Reply

@McTag,

Thanks, McTag.

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@tanguatlay,

avoid saying "you people" at all costs.
no good can come from it... Smile

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@Region Philbis,

Region Philbis wrote:

avoid saying "you people" at all costs.
no good can come from it...

That would sound like the voice of a dictator or an idiot. Razz

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

CONVERSATION, IN WRITING, PART OF A BOOK:

He: So what did the people do...did they sing or did they just sit there not making a soundt? Did you get the scoop on that?

She: I heard the people sang.

Aso, "I heard the people sang" is written in context in your example.

1 Reply

@oristarA,

Quote:

That would sound like the voice of a dictator or an idiot.

Region is not a dictator.

Smile

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

Aso, "I heard the people sang" is written in context in your example.

Is your contention now that sentences can be ungrammatical out of context but grammatical within a context, Infra?

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@tanguatlay,

Quote:

I was confused by 'the people'. If I used 'they' or 'them' instead, both sentences would be clearly grammatically correct.

I'm not sure why 'the people' caused you confusion.

In defense of those ENLs who were confused, sometimes a sentence in isolation sounds odd. Put into a context, it's clear that it's a grammatical construct.

A: When the new pastor entered the church, the people were ecstatic.

B: Yes, they surely were.

C: I heard the people sang.

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@JTT,

Elegant.

1 Reply

@JTT,

I suspect his "confusion" originates from case grammar distinctions which differ between languages. But unless we are familiar with his native language we can only speculate what contextual forces are operating to cause his confusion. This underscores the point that selective comparative couplets are themselves a function of cultural difference and cannot analysed by "traditional grammar"....hence your necessity of resorting to contextual "discourse analysis", which goes beyond grammars which take "the sentence" as their fundamental unit.( That point underlies "post-structural" views of language).

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@fresco,

That's what I thought.

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@McTag,

I think there's an intended lesson in there somewhere.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Your stabs at humor in this thread have been excellent, JTT. I've enjoyed your comments here more than in any other thread so far. Glad to see the lighter side of you.

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@Frank Apisa,

Garshuuuucks, ... aaaaawwwww geeeeeee ------ thanks, Frank. Embarrassed

Quote:

I've enjoyed your comments here more than in any other thread so far. Glad to see the lighter side of you.

Hate to spoil a warm moment but the truth is sometimes awfully hard to swallow, Frank.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

Hate to spoil a warm moment but the truth is sometimes awfully hard to swallow, Frank.

"Warm" things and "hard to swallow" usually head in a different direction from this, JTT, but I appreciate the comment. Wink

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Difference in meaning between the sentences

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