They’re 18 for Gods sake

@spendius,

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no matter how discreditable those temporarily in charge of it might be.

So now it's not just a couple of evil little priests. You are a study in confusion, Spendi. But please, go on believing. I applaud your right to be duped, to self dupe, to try to dupe others.

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Both can only be undermined intellectually.

And both are with alarming regularity.

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@JTT,

You look to be completely uneducated JT.

You can't seem to understand simple things.

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You are a study in confusion, Spendi.

That doesn't mean anything outside of you blurting it. It doesn't mean I am confused. It means you are asserting that I am as an argument about what I had said which was that the theology is unaffected by the behaviour of those in temporarily in charge of it. That they are hypocrites does not affect the validity of the theology. We don't all start stealing because some law enforcers are caught stealing. It is not alright to screw our neighbour's wife because an Archbishop is caught doing so.

And it was obvious that is what I meant. It's you who is confused and it is because you can't read properly.

What exactly is it that you think I believe. I think it a duty to screw my neighbour's wife if she asks me to. At my age I possibly could only give it a try. If I don't it is because I fear the possible aversive consequences. It is not because I believe it wrong.

I don't think you have any idea of the roles of positive and negative reinforcing and aversive contingencies and obviously not of the complexities involved.

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And both are with alarming regularity.

Provide an example without using any babyish assertions.

You're trying to parlez a very limited education into some sort of expertise. It might well work for you where you are. It's a load of fanny to me.

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@spendius,

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That they are hypocrites does not affect the validity of the theology.

You miss the simple fact that the "theology" was created by these same miscreants. Undeniably, there have been some decent folk, but that doesn't mean that their "theology" has any real credence.

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You look to be completely uneducated JT.

You can't seem to understand simple things.

jtt: You are a study in confusion, Spendi.

That doesn't mean anything outside of you blurting it.

Then comes this mass of confusion.

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What exactly is it that you think I believe. I think it a duty to screw my neighbour's wife if she asks me to. At my age I possibly could only give it a try. If I don't it is because I fear the possible aversive consequences. It is not because I believe it wrong.

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I am going to agree with comments from both Spendius and JTT on this thread.

JTT is correct that the hierarchy and soldiers of the Catholic Church leave lots to be desired in character and morality. LOTS!

But Spendius is correct that the teachings and general thrust of the Church are NOT dependent upon the morality and character of the people in temporary control of it.

It is my opinion that the Catholic Church more accurately interprets the teachings of the Bible and of Jesus than any of the other so-called Christian denominations.

It is my opinion that the Bible is of no value at all in determining whether or not gods exist; what offends and pleases any gods that do exist; and what any gods that do exist expect of humans.

The Catholic Church is a mess right now. The other so-called Christian denominations seem to me to be a rather vulgar and obscene joke.

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@Frank Apisa,

The bigger problem is that as this civilization ends we don't believe in anything important at all, to include reason and science. Looking at the problems of the Church and religion in general is somewhat interesting, but there will be no solutions till the next civilization is born. Right now humans are too shallow and unformed and uninformed to track reality or make anything of this life. We humans are generally vulgar obscene jokes of what humanity once was, even as we put down our ancestors. This is a very interesting example of the power of ego defense.

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@JTT,

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You miss the simple fact that the "theology" was created by these same miscreants. Undeniably, there have been some decent folk, but that doesn't mean that their "theology" has any real credence.

Sheesh!! What's the "real" for?? I would very much doubt whether any of them were "decent" in the way a lower-middle-class person such as yourself would use the word. They don't reach the top of large, rich institutions by being decent. They are worldly, ambitious men. How could cultures be managed by tweeting school-marms?

What changes about "thou shalt not steal" if the Pope is caught robbing trains? What changes about "thou shalt not commit adultery" if the Cardinals are all caught in a naked romp-up in a nunnery. Do you not understand this simple principle. The only people who think such behaviour discredits the commandments are those who want to steal or commit adultery.

Why is a "mass of confusion"--

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What exactly is it that you think I believe. I think it a duty to screw my neighbour's wife if she asks me to. At my age I possibly could only give it a try. If I don't it is because I fear the possible aversive consequences. It is not because I believe it wrong.

?

It's as plain as a piss-hole in a snowdrift.

Your silly assertion that the statement is a mass of confusion needs validating.

You can't seem to realise that if you use assertions as arguments you automatically grant permission for everybody else to do the same and then discussion itself is meaningless. Unless you're a dictator of course. Which you are not. Though you show tendencies that way. If you are looking for "it is--it isn't--it is--no it isn't--it ******* well is--no it ******* well isn't" arguments find somebody else to argue with. It's a complete waste of time.

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@spendius,

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You can't seem to realise that if you use assertions as arguments you automatically grant permission for everybody else to do the same and then discussion itself is meaningless. Unless you're a dictator of course. Which you are not. Though you show tendencies that way. If you are looking for "it is--it isn't--it is--no it isn't--it ******* well is--no it ******* well isn't" arguments find somebody else to argue with. It's a complete waste of time.

spendius the religious dinosaur making the call for reason in an age that has abandoned reason?

INTERESTING!

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@Frank Apisa,

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The Catholic Church is a mess right now.

I don't agree. It has had a few little difficulties made worse by incompetence, mainly in recruitment, and an understandable need for better presentation, and people who use disproportionate indignation (see Syria or a few other situations JTT regularly mentions) to keep diddling little lads at the forefront of their dirty little minds.

On the argument the Catholic Church should vanish. The scientists can step in to control our behaviour scientifically. Probably the exact same sort of people only with no semblance of morality. I feel sure you would all love that I must say. Back to 30,000 gods like the defunct Pagans had. More, because we have more gear to have gods of.

JTT is not correct in any particular. The Church is a vast organisation and needs to employ a very large number of human beings and it is human beings who leave lots to be desired in all sorts of ways. Expecting the Church to be perfect is idiotic to say the least. And to derive from its imperfections the conclusion that it should be dispensed with is vandalism and, in the absence of an alternative, as gratuitous as street furniture vandalism. It has totalitarian dictatorship on the end of it. Or anarchy. With the latter our enemies and rivals would just walk in and takeover and stuff their religion up your arses with a red hot poker.

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@spendius,

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I don't agree. It has had a few little difficulties made worse by incompetence, mainly in recruitment,

BULLSHIT. The church is in trouble because of incompetent leadership over a very long time and because it is wed to dying civilization. the church could have reformed and carried on the the next civilization in some new form, but it is too late now. too much time and moral authority and been squandered by the incompetents running the Church. The church does not have "a few little difficulties", it is over.

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@spendius,

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It's as plain as a piss-hole in a snowdrift.

And at least as substantive, Spendi.

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@spendius,

What would you say Frank if your neighbour's wife asked you for a shag, as some do to my personal knowledge, and her husband said it was okay or he was somebody you could see off with one arm tied behind your back. Answer for your 25 year old self. No dreary, droopy excuses. She's a bit of alright.

Okay. The Church knows all about that. Suppose it was 12 months in the nick under the scientists and being on the register for life, and if they allowed a free-for-all we would be back with the buffaloes. That would deter most I think.

On the other hand 969,699,996, 000,000, years or parsecs (add triplets of "0"s to your taste, eternity is a funny thing), burning in the deepest pits of hell with devlish fiends pouring boiling lead in your ears, hardly deters any healthy young man. And if you seek absolution from the priest by confessing your sin, error under the scientists, so that the Church can keep track of how much adultery is going on, and any hotspots, in order that arrangements can be made to adjust the rate to manageable proportions you only have to say 3 Our Fathers and 3 Hail Marys, and with practice it doesn't take very long, but an impression is left, however vague, that one ought to be a trifle ashamed of oneself and thus less prone to falling into depravity again.

On the 3 strikes you're out principle the scientist would operate on your dick. And don't kid yourselves they wouldn't.

The Church isn't called The Whore of Babylon for nothing. What would be the point of shagging your neighbour's wife if it wasn't a sin? Or an error?

No wonder it has imposed itself on the world. Think of New Zealand 1000 years ago and think of it now. Christian values, whatever dickheads are running the show, are everywhere. Right under your own noses.

Do you know what went on in Greece and Rome at their most civilised moments. You would go to sleep hoping you wouldn't wake up.

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@spendius,

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Do you know what went on in Greece and Rome at their most civilised moments. You would go to sleep hoping you wouldn't wake up.

Not sure of your point here, Spendius. You may be saying what I am going to say in my next few comments...although perhaps not.

I know that for 500 years Rome was one of the most dissolute places ever to exist on planet Earth…and for most of that time it was also one of the most powerful countries ever to exist. I know that within a few generations of reaching full accommodation with Christianity…it ceased being a world power.

I’m not saying one caused the other…nobody can say that with authority.

But I also know that during its time of greatest depravity, Rome contributed huge advancements to law, art, architecture, science, and literature…and that the advent of Christianity heralded 500 years of stagnation so severe, the period is now called the Dark Ages.

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@spendius,

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What would you say Frank if your neighbour's wife asked you for a shag, as some do to my personal knowledge, and her husband said it was okay or he was somebody you could see off with one arm tied behind your back. Answer for your 25 year old self. No dreary, droopy excuses. She's a bit of alright.

As for my neighbor's wife...he is a brute, he is 100 pounds heavier than I, he is solid muscle, he is 40 years younger, and he is jealous to a fault. She is ******* gorgeous with a body that would give the statue of David an erection, but I wouldn't shag her on a bet because I wanna die in relative peace.

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@hawkeye10,

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spendius the religious dinosaur making the call for reason in an age that has abandoned reason?

What do you think any success I have will do to for house prices hawk?

But I don't think we have entirely abandoned reason. The booms and busts are like a Christmas party. The wilder the party the more reason returns as it winds down into the morning after.

Did you see the sobbing baby with "BORN BANKRUPT" on its vest? That's a bit shaming for us boomers. It might restore some reason. Are you saying that the hearts of politicians are not moved by such a terrible image? I'm not that cynical.

If Dylan's Union Sundown didn't restore any reason it might not be as good a song as that logo. The obviously well fed baby (about 9 months) was shown wearing a large nappy arrangement. It was a brilliant picture. To get that expression its Mummy must have left the room leaving it alone with the production team. They wouldn't dare be torturing it. It couldn't have acted its confused broken-heartedness or had an onion applied to its eyes.

Reason is never dead. Keep the faith.

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@spendius,

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Reason is never dead. Keep the faith.

personally i do, but the evidence suggests that most of my peers are too stupid to follow suit.

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@Frank Apisa,

You'll have to read Edward Gibbon sometime Frank. It only takes a few months going at the right pace. Whizzing through it so you can claim to have read it, and thus be thought of as an intellectual, is no bloody good at all. That's like swigging Castle Lafite Rothschild Pauillac 1996 down from the neck of the bottle.

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@spendius,

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You'll have to read Edward Gibbon sometime Frank. It only takes a few months going at the right pace. Whizzing through it so you can claim to have read it, and thus be thought of as an intellectual, is no bloody good at all. That's like swigging Castle Lafite Rothschild Pauillac 1996 down from the neck of the bottle.

Am I to assume you KNOW that I have not read it...in the original English?

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@Frank Apisa,

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As for my neighbor's wife...he is a brute, he is 100 pounds heavier than I, he is solid muscle, he is 40 years younger, and he is jealous to a fault. She is ******* gorgeous with a body that would give the statue of David an erection, but I wouldn't shag her on a bet because I wanna die in relative peace.

Wor a wimp eh? These agnostics!! What can you say?

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@spendius,

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The only people who think such behaviour discredits the commandments are those who want to steal or commit adultery.

Given that Moses Prophet of god according to the bible on coming down from the mountain top with those commandments under his arm then order the killings of thousands of his own people that is all the discrediting that seems needed .

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@BillRM,

It's a story Bill. What orders did General Washington give out?

Do you think that if Moses had ordered the mass slaughter of everybody his troops could find it would make stealing and adultery respectable?

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They’re 18 for Gods sake

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