18
   

They’re 18 for Gods sake

 
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 12:30 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
In what ways as the choice is clear
Is it

Quote:
should we allow the state to outlaw by way of the criminal code consensus sex between adults?
In many ways I hesitate to numerate for the day is short and yard work calls

Quote:
Be that gay sex ,
Sure why not

Quote:
interracial sex, S&M sex,
Sure why not

Quote:
students teachers sex,
Depends

Quote:
boss and employee sex,
It’s ok with me

Quote:
lawyers and clients sex...
Mighty prove fun

Quote:
So far the higher courts tend to had rules that such bans run afoul of the US Constitution
Typo? Bill you might wish to rephrase

Quote:
and I hope this is the next ban that will be rule against.
I presume you mean teach-stud

Forgive pun
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 01:10 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
What are my choices?


There are a lot but they coalesce around you being the judge and jury. That's what I am doing. If I was the jury I would have said not guilty and if I was the judge I would have reprimanded the prosecution for wasting the court's time and abusing their power to provide themselves with positive reinforcers. What about you Beth?

It would be more respectful to A2Kers if you didn't try to slip away with that sort of response. The positions are crystal clear and very polarised. You're dithering.

In case it is not understood a positive reinforcer is any experience of a pleasurable nature be it sensual, psychological or material. Having cameras in court provides positive reinforcers.

There is a theory that China executes people readily because there is a thriving trade in fresh organs for transplantation into rich foreigners. All quite legal.

BTW--do you think I write like a drunk? Really!! It's a weary and nonsensical argument. It's water drinkers who can't write or comprehend those who can.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 01:31 pm
@spendius,
Guilty or not guilty of what? the charges as laid in the original post? in that jurisdiction with those precise facts?

In that case, the jury must find her guilty. Juries have to respond to the case and the law in front of them. They are not tasked to be law-makers. It's not a matter of personal preference.

~~~

bottom of a water bottle?
bottom of a wine bottle?

the effect is the same

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/31/55207991_eb40b072ec.jpg

BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 01:40 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
In that case, the jury must find her guilty. Juries have to respond to the case and the law in front of them. They are not tasked to be law-makers. It's not a matter of personal preference


Sorry not true at all look up the term jury nullification and if I had been on that jury it would had at least been a hung jury.

Here is the article on the subject as a gift.......

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification

Jury nullification is a constitutional doctrine which allows juries to acquit criminal defendants who are technically guilty, but who do not deserve punishment. It occurs in a trial when a jury reaches a verdict contrary to the judge's instructions as to the law.

A jury verdict contrary to the letter of the law pertains only to the particular case before it. If a pattern of acquittals develops, however, in response to repeated attempts to prosecute a statutory offence, this can have the de facto effect of invalidating the statute. A pattern of jury nullification may indicate public opposition to an unwanted legislative enactment.

In the past, it was feared that a single judge or panel of government officials may be unduly influenced to follow established legal practice, even when that practice had drifted from its origins. In most modern Western legal systems, however, juries are often instructed to serve only as "finders of facts", whose role it is to determine the veracity of the evidence presented, and the weight accorded to the evidence,[1] to apply that evidence to the law and reach a verdict, but not to decide what the law is. Similarly, juries are routinely cautioned by courts and some attorneys to not allow sympathy for a party or other affected persons to compromise the fair and dispassionate evaluation of evidence during the guilt phase of a trial. These instructions are criticized by advocates of jury nullification. Some commonly cited historical examples of jury nullification involve the refusal of American colonial juries to convict a defendant under English law.[2]

Juries have also refused to convict due to the perceived injustice of a law in general,[3] or the perceived injustice of the way the law is applied in particular cases.[4] There have also been cases where the juries have refused to convict due to their own prejudices such as the race of one of the parties in the case.[5]

Other cases have revealed that some juries simply refuse to render a guilty verdict in the absence of overwhelming direct or scientific evidence to support such a judgment. With this type of jury impaneled for the trial of a case, even substantial and competently presented circumstantial evidence may be discounted or rendered inconsequential during the jury's deliberation.[citation needed]

Contents [hide]
1 Background
2 Common law precedent
3 Specific jurisdictions
3.1 Canada
3.2 England
3.3 United States
3.3.1 Fugitive Slave Law
3.3.2 Post Civil War
3.3.3 21st century
3.3.4 Judicial opinion in the U.S.
4 Controversy
5 U.S State Laws
6 See also
7 References
8 External links


[edit] Background
A nineteenth-century juryJury nullification is a de facto power of juries. Judges rarely inform juries of their nullification power. The power of jury nullification derives from an inherent quality of most modern common law systems—a general unwillingness to inquire into jurors' motivations during or after deliberations. A jury's ability to nullify the law is further supported by two common law precedents: the prohibition on punishing jury members for their verdict, and the prohibition (in some countries) on retrying defendants after an acquittal (see related topics res judicata and double jeopardy).

Jury nullification is the source of much debate. Some maintain that it is an important safeguard of last resort against wrongful imprisonment and government tyranny.[6][7] Others view it as a violation of the right to a jury trial that undermines the law.[7] Some view it as a violation of the oath sworn to by jurors. In the United States, some view the requirement that jurors take an oath to be unlawful in itself, while still others view the oath's reference to "deliverance" to require nullification of unjust law: "will well and truly try and a true deliverance make between the United States and the defendant at the bar, and a true verdict render according to the evidence, so help [me] God." United States v. Green, 556 F.2d 71 (D.C. Cir. 1977). [8] Some fear that nullification could be used to permit violence against socially unpopular factions.[9] They point to the danger that a jury may choose to convict a defendant who has not broken the letter of the law. However, judges retain the rights both to decide sentences and to disregard juries' guilty verdicts, acting as a check against malicious juries. Jury nullification may also occur in civil suits, in which the verdict is generally a finding of liability or lack of liability (rather than a finding of guilty or not guilty).[10]

Nevertheless, there is little doubt as to the ability of a jury to nullify the law. Today, there are several issues raised by jury nullification.

First, whether juries can or should be instructed or informed of their power to nullify.
Second, whether a judge may remove jurors "for cause" when they refuse to apply the law as instructed.
Third, whether a judge may punish a juror for exercising the power of jury nullification.
Fourth, whether all legal arguments, except perhaps on motions in limine to exclude evidence, should be made in the presence of the jury.
In some cases in the United States, a stealth juror will attempt to get on a jury in order to nullify the law.[11] Some lawyers use a shadow defense to get information entered into the record that would otherwise be inadmissible hoping that evidence will trigger a jury nullification.[12][13] A notable contemporary example of this tactic was the claim by the defense in the Roger Clemens perjury trial to have the charges against Clemens dismissed due to "prosecutorial misconduct", i.e. that the prosecution intentionally introduced video evidence which Judge Reggie Walton had ruled inadmissible, for the purposes of getting, in the words of the defense, "a second bite at the apple", due to the prosecution's alleged poor performance. The introduction of the tainted evidence caused a mistrial after only two days. The judge denied the defense's motion but noted his strong displeasure with the prosecution. [2], [3], [4]

[edit] Common law precedent
Even prior to Bushell's Case, Sir Nicholas Throckmorton, a Protestant dissident, was acquitted by a jury, despite the hostility of the judges.The early history of juries supports the recognition of the de facto power of nullification. By the 12th century, common law courts in England began using juries for more than administrative duties. Juries were composed primarily of "laymen" from the local community. They provided a somewhat efficient means of dispute resolution with the benefit of supplying legitimacy.

The general power of juries to decide on verdicts was recognised in the English Magna Carta [14] of 1215, which put into words existing practices:

No free man shall be captured, and or imprisoned, or disseised of his freehold, and or of his liberties, or of his free customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or in any way destroyed, nor will we proceed against him by force or proceed against him by arms, but by the lawful judgment of his peers, and or by the law of the land
For a trivial offence, a free man shall be fined only in proportion to the degree of his offence, and for a serious offence correspondingly, but not so heavily as to deprive him of his livelihood. In the same way, a merchant shall be spared his merchandise, and a husbandman the implements of his husbandry, if they fall upon the mercy of a royal court. None of these fines shall be imposed except by the assessment on oath of reputable men of the neighbourhood
Largely, the earliest juries returned verdicts in accordance with the judge or the crown. This was achieved either by "packing the jury" or by "writ of attaint". Juries were packed by hand-selecting or by bribing the jury so as to return the desired verdict. This was a common tactic in cases involving treason or sedition. In addition, the writ of attaint allowed a judge to retry the case in front of a second jury when the judge believed the first jury returned a "false verdict". If the second jury returned a different verdict, that verdict was imposed and the first jury was imprisoned or fined.

This history, however, is marked by a number of notable exceptions. In 1554, a jury acquitted Sir Nicholas Throckmorton, but was severely punished by the court. Almost a century later in 1649, in the first known attempt to argue for jury nullification, a jury likewise acquitted John Lilburne for his part in inciting a rebellion against the Cromwell regime. The theoretician and politician Eduard Bernstein wrote of Lilburne's trial:

His contention that the constitution of the Court was contrary to the fundamental laws of the country was unheeded, and his claim that the jury was legally entitled to judge not only as to matters of fact but also as to the application of the law itself, as the Judges represented only 'Norman intruders', whom the jury might here ignore in reaching a verdict, was described by an enraged judge as 'damnable, blasphemous heresy.' This view was not shared by the jury, which, after three days’ hearing, acquitted Lilburne — who had defended himself as skilfully as any lawyer could have done — to the great horror of the Judges and the chagrin of the majority of the Council of State. The Judges were so astonished at the verdict of the jury that they had to repeat their question before they would believe their ears, but the public which crowded the judgment hall, on the announcement of the verdict, broke out into cheers so loud and long as, according to the unanimous testimony of contemporary reporters, had never before been heard in the Guildhall. The cheering and waving of caps continued for over half an hour, while the Judges sat, turning white and red in turns, and spread thence to the masses in London and the suburbs. At night bonfires were lighted, and even during the following days the event was the occasion of joyful demonstrations.[15]

In 1653 Lilburne was on trial again and asked the jury to acquit him if it found the death penalty "unconscionably severe" in proportion to the crime he committed. The jury found Lilburne "Not guilty of any crime worthy of death".[citation needed]

In 1670, a grand jury refused to convict William Penn of unlawful assembly in Bushel's Case. The judge attempted to find the jury in contempt of court; this was ruled inappropriate by the Court of Common Pleas.

In 1681, a grand jury refused to indict the Earl of Shaftesbury. Then in 1688, a jury acquitted the Archbishop of Canterbury and six other Anglican bishops of seditious libel. Juries continued, even in non-criminal cases, to act in defiance of the crown. In 1763 and 1765, juries awarded £4,000 and £300 to John Wilkes and John Entick, respectively, in separate suits for trespass against the crown's messengers. In both cases, messengers were sent by Lord Halifax to seize allegedly libelous papers.[citation needed]

In Scotland jury nullification had the profound effect of introducing (or as others believed, reviving) the verdict of "not guilty". It was in 1728 that one Carnegie of Finhaven accidentally killed the Scottish Earl of Strathmore. As the defendant had undoubtedly killed the Earl, the law (as it stood) required the jury merely to look at the facts and pass a verdict of "proven" or "not proven" depending on whether they believed the facts proved the defendant had killed the Earl.[citation needed] However, if the jury brought in a "proven" verdict they would in effect cause this innocent man to die. To avert this injustice, the jury decided to assert what it believed to be their "ancient right" to judge the whole case and not just the facts, rendering the verdict of "not guilty" which remains in Scotland to this day. Over time, however, juries have tended to favour the "not guilty" verdict over "not proven" and with this the interpretation has changed. Now the "not guilty" verdict has become the normal verdict when a jury is convinced of innocence and the "not proven" verdict is only used when the jury is not certain of innocence or guilt.[citation needed]

Standard jury trial practice in the United States during the Founding Era and for several decades afterward was to argue all issues of law in the presence of the jury, so that the jury heard the same arguments the bench did in reaching his rulings on motions. This is evidenced by such decisions as the 1839 case Stettinius v. U.S., in which it was held that "The defense can argue law to the jury before the court gives instructions."[16] Later, judges began to demand the parties submit motions in writing, often before the jury was empaneled, to be argued and decided without the jury being present. This transition began with motions in limine, to exclude evidence, on which it was felt the jury should not hear the argument because they would be informed of the evidence to be excluded. Later that was expanded to include all legal argument, so that today, that earlier practice of arguing law before the jury has been largely forgotten, and judges even declare mistrials or overturn verdicts if legal argument is made to the jury.[citation needed]

[edit] Specific jurisdictions[edit] CanadaAlthough extremely rare, jury nullification does occur in Canada. The power is subject to greater than usual scrutiny, as the prosecution has powers to appeal the resulting acquittal. In addition, judges tend to be very much against nullification; in R. v. Latimer, 2001 SCC 1,[17] it was stated that "The trial did not become unfair simply because the trial judge undermined the jury’s de facto power to nullify. In most if not all cases, jury nullification will not be a valid factor in analyzing trial fairness for the accused. Guarding against jury nullification is a desirable and legitimate exercise for a trial judge; in fact a judge is required to take steps to ensure that the jury will apply the law properly."

However, a few famous examples of nullification have occurred in Canada. In the 1988 Supreme Court case, R. v. Morgentaler, 1988 SCR 30,[18] a nullification was appealed all the way to the country's highest court, which struck down the law in question. In obiter dicta, Chief Justice Dickson wrote:

The contrary principle contended for by Mr. Manning, that a jury may be encouraged to ignore a law it does not like, could lead to gross inequities. One accused could be convicted by a jury who supported the existing law, while another person indicted for the same offence could be acquitted by a jury who, with reformist zeal, wished to express disapproval of the same law. Moreover, a jury could decide that although the law pointed to a conviction, the jury would simply refuse to apply the law to an accused for whom it had sympathy. Alternatively, a jury who feels antipathy towards an accused might convict despite a law which points to acquittal. To give a harsh but I think telling example, a jury fueled by the passions of racism could be told that they need not apply the law against murder to a white man who had killed a black man. Such a possibility need only be stated to reveal the potentially frightening implications of Mr. Manning's assertions. [...]

It is no doubt true that juries have a de facto power to disregard the law as stated to the jury by the judge. We cannot enter the jury room. The jury is never called upon to explain the reasons which lie behind a verdict. It may even be true that in some limited circumstances the private decision of a jury to refuse to apply the law will constitute, in the words of a Law Reform Commission of Canada working paper, "the citizen's ultimate protection against oppressive laws and the oppressive enforcement of the law" (Law Reform Commission of Canada, Working Paper 27, The Jury in Criminal Trials (1980)). But recognizing this reality is a far cry from suggesting that counsel may encourage a jury to ignore a law they do not support or to tell a jury that it has a right to do so.

The Supreme Court more recently issued a decision, R. v. Krieger 2006 SCC 47,[19] which confirmed that juries in Canada have the power to refuse to apply the law when their consciences require that they do so. Within this decision, it is stated that "juries are not entitled as a matter of right to refuse to apply the law — but they do have the power to do so when their consciences permit of no other course."[19]

[edit] EnglandBy the late 17th century, the court's ability to punish juries was removed in Bushel's Case[20] involving a juror on the case against William Penn. Penn and William Mead had been arrested in 1670 for illegally preaching a Quaker sermon and disturbing the peace, but four jurors, led by Edward Bushell refused to find them guilty. Instead of dismissing the jury, the judge sent them back for further deliberations. Despite the judge demanding a guilty verdict, the jury this time unanimously found Penn guilty of preaching but acquitted him on the charge of disturbing the peace and acquitted Mead of all charges. The jury was then subsequently kept for three days without "meat, drink, fire and tobacco" to force them to bring in a guilty verdict and when they failed to do so the judge ended the trial. As punishment the judge ordered the jurors imprisoned until they paid a fine to the court. Four jurors refused to pay the fine and after several months, Edward Bushell sought a writ of habeas corpus. Chief Justice Vaughan, sitting on the Court of Common Pleas, discharged the writ, released them, called the power to punish a jury "absurd", and forbade judges from punishing jurors for returning a verdict the judge disagreed with.[21] This series of events is considered a significant milestone in the history of jury nullification.[22] The particular case is celebrated in a plaque displayed in the Central Criminal Court (The Old Bailey) in London.

In a criminal libel case, R. v. Shipley (1784), 4 Dougl. 73, 99 E.R. 774, at p. 824, Lord Mansfield disparaged the practice of jury nullification:

So the jury who usurp the judicature of law, though they happen to be right, are themselves wrong, because they are right by chance only, and have not taken the constitutional way of deciding the question. It is the duty of the Judge, in all cases of general justice, to tell the jury how to do right, though they have it in their power to do wrong, which is a matter entirely between God and their own consciences.
To be free is to live under a government by law [...]. Miserable is the condition of individuals, dangerous is the condition of the State, if there is no certain law, or, which is the same thing, no certain administration of law, to protect individuals, or to guard the State.

[...]

In opposition to this, what is contended for? -- That the law shall be, in every particular cause, what any twelve men, who shall happen to be the jury, shall be inclined to think; liable to no review, and subject to no control, under all the prejudices of the popular cry of the day, and under all the bias of interest in this town, where thousands, more or less, are concerned in the publication of newspapers, paragraphs, and pamphlets. Under such an administration of law, no man could tell, no counsel could advise, whether a paper was or was not punishable.

In 1982, during the Falklands War, the British Royal Navy sank an Argentine Cruiser – the "ARA General Belgrano". A civil servant (government employee) named Clive Ponting leaked two government documents concerning the sinking of the cruiser to a Member of Parliament (Tam Dalyell) and was subsequently charged with breaching section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911. The prosecution in the case demanded that the jury convict Ponting as he had clearly contravened the Act by leaking official information about the sinking of the Belgrano during the Falklands War. His main defence, that it was in the public interest that this information be made available, was rejected on the grounds that "the public interest is what the government of the day says it is", but the jury nevertheless acquitted him, much to the consternation of the Government. He had argued that he had acted out of 'his duty to the interests of the state'; the judge had argued that civil servants owed their duty to the government.[citation needed]

[edit] United StatesMain article: Jury nullification in the United States
In the United States, jury nullification first appeared in the pre-Civil War era when juries sometimes refused to convict for violations of the Fugitive Slave Act. Later, during Prohibition, juries often nullified alcohol control laws,[23] possibly as often as 60% of the time.[24] This resistance may have contributed to the adoption of the Twenty-first amendment repealing Prohibition, the Eighteenth amendment.

In a well known example of jury nullification, at the end of James Hickok's trial for the manslaughter of Davis Tutt in 1865, Judge Sempronius Boyd gave the jury two instructions. He first instructed the jury that a conviction was its only option under the law, he then instructed them that they could apply the unwritten law of the "fair fight" and acquit. Hickok was acquitted, a verdict that was not popular with the public.[25][26]

[edit] Fugitive Slave Law"Jury nullification" was practiced in the 1850s to protest the federal Fugitive Slave Act, which was part of the Compromise of 1850. The Act had been passed to mollify the slave owners from the South, who were otherwise threatening to secede from the Union. Across the North, local juries acquitted men accused of violating the law. Secretary of State Daniel Webster was a key supporter of the law as expressed in his famous "Seventh of March" speech. He wanted high profile convictions. The jury nullifications ruined his presidential aspirations and his last-ditch efforts to find a compromise between North and South. Webster led the prosecution when defendants were accused of rescuing Shadrach Minkins in 1851 from Boston officials who intended to return Minkins to his owner; the juries convicted none of the men. Webster tried to enforce a law that was extremely unpopular in the North, and his Whig Party passed over him again when they chose a presidential nominee in 1852.[27]

[edit] Post Civil WarWhite defendants accused of crimes against blacks and other minorities were often acquitted by all-white juries, especially in the South, even in the face of irrefutable evidence. [28]

[edit] 21st centuryIn the 21st century, many discussions of jury nullification center on drug laws that some consider unjust either in principle or because they are seen to discriminate[verification needed] against certain groups. A jury nullification advocacy group estimates that 3–4% of all jury trials involve nullification,[29] and a recent rise in hung juries is seen by some as being indirect evidence that juries have begun to consider the validity or fairness of the laws themselves.[30]

[edit] Judicial opinion in the U.S.In the 1895 in the case of Sparf v. United States written by Justice John Marshall Harlan, the United States Supreme Court held 5 to 4 that a trial judge has no responsibility to inform the jury of the right to nullify laws. This decision, often cited, has led to a common practice by United States judges to penalize anyone who attempts to present a nullification argument to jurors and to declare a mistrial if such argument has been presented to them. In some states, jurors are likely to be struck from the panel during voir dire if they will not agree to accept as correct the rulings and instructions of the law as provided by the judge.[31]

In recent rulings, the courts have continued to prohibit informing juries about jury nullification. In a 1969 Fourth Circuit decision, U.S. v. Moylan, 417 F.2d 1002 (4th Cir.1969), the Court affirmed the concept of jury nullification, but upheld the power of a court to refuse to permit an instruction to the jury to this effect.[32] In 1972, in United States v. Dougherty, 473 F.2d 1113, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit issued a ruling similar to Moylan that affirmed the de facto power of a jury to nullify the law but upheld the denial of the defense's chance to instruct the jury about the power to nullify.[33] In 1988, the Sixth Circuit upheld a jury instruction that "There is no such thing as valid jury nullification." however one of the dissenting judges pointed out that in United States v. Wilson, 629 F. 2d 439 - Court of Appeals, 6th Circuit 1980 that the panel had unanimously decided "In criminal cases, a jury is entitled to acquit the defendant because it has no sympathy for the government's position."[34] In 1997, the Second Circuit ruled that jurors can be removed if there is evidence that they intend to nullify the law, under Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 23(b).[35] The Supreme Court has not recently confronted the issue of jury nullification. Further, as officers of the court, attorneys have sworn an oath to uphold the law, and are ethically prohibited from directly advocating for jury nullification.[36]

[edit] ControversyThe main deontic issue involved in jury nullification is the tension between democratic self-government and integrity.[37] The argument has been raised that prosecutors are not allowed to seek jury nullification, and therefore defendants should not be allowed to seek it either.[38]

[edit] U.S State LawsOn June 18, 2012, New Hampshire passed a law explicitly allowing defense attorneys to inform juries about Jury Nullification.[39]

[edit] See also Law portal
Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to: Jury nullification

Citizens Rule Book
Fully Informed Jury Association
Josephine Terranova
Judgment notwithstanding verdict
Ultimate fact
Jury Nullification (book)
[edit] References1.^ Graves, Dr Frederick D. (2009),
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 01:56 pm
@BillRM,
from your link

Quote:
So the jury who usurp the judicature of law, though they happen to be right, are themselves wrong, because they are right by chance only, and have not taken the constitutional way of deciding the question. It is the duty of the Judge, in all cases of general justice, to tell the jury how to do right, though they have it in their power to do wrong, which is a matter entirely between God and their own consciences.

To be free is to live under a government by law [...]. Miserable is the condition of individuals, dangerous is the condition of the State, if there is no certain law, or, which is the same thing, no certain administration of law, to protect individuals, or to guard the State.

BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:03 pm
@ehBeth,
So that is an opinion that you share?

You would convict someone under an immortal law because it was your duty to the state to do so?

You would had punish men and women who was part of the underground railroad getting slaves to freedoms because that was the law?

You would had found a black person guilty for sitting at a lunch counter mark for whites only?

If you help the state enforced immortal laws then you yourself are also immortal in my opinion.

For me, if on a jury dealing with a clearly immortal law I would used the power of jury nullification in a heart beat.

In any case, the power is there and if you do not use it when call for it is on your conscience.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:22 pm
@ehBeth,
Oh obeying the orders or the instructions given to you by someone with authority given by the state to do so such as a military leader or a judge does not excuse a person from their own respectability in carrying out immoral instructions.

Under the above theory we hung any numbers of people for just following orders after WW2.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:26 pm
Don't have a stroke, bill. Relax. The teacher was guilty. No teacher should have sex with a student. The penalty was harsh, but I believe that will get shortened before the process has run its course. End of story, until new developments.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:27 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
you yourself are also immortal in my opinion.


awesome

I've always dreamt of immortality.


~~~


As I have posted previously, I think that if you disagree with the laws of a jurisdiction you should move and/or you should campaign to have the laws changed.

I live in Canada where the laws are quite different from Texas. From what I have seen of the laws in Texas, it is not someplace I'd ever consider moving.

As you will have noted from the wikipedia link you posted, jury nullification is undesirable in Canada. From the Supreme Court of Canada decision on Latimer:

"Guarding against jury nullification is a desirable and legitimate exercise for a trial judge; in fact a judge is required to take steps to ensure that the jury will apply the law properly."
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:34 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Quote:
Trudeau famously defended the bill by telling reporters that "there's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation", adding that "what's done in private between adults doesn't concern the Criminal Code"


1967. Where has the U.S. been for the last 45 years?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:34 pm
@ehBeth,
immoral [ɪˈmɒrəl]
adj
1. transgressing accepted moral rules; corrupt
2. sexually dissolute; profligate or promiscuous
3. unscrupulous or unethical immoral trading
4. tending to corrupt or resulting from corruption an immoral film immoral earnings
immorally adv
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:36 pm
@BillRM,
this is what you wrote

BillRM wrote:
then you yourself are also immortal in my opinion.


and since we all know you can post with no typos and without grammar errors on occasion (thanks OSD for continuing to point that out) ... I think it is truly what you meant
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 02:52 pm
@ehBeth,
Sorry that it is harder to successfully use the power of Jury nullification in Canada but it had been done and no matter how likely or unlikely it might be successfully done does not change the morality of not using jury nullification when it is call for.

As far as moving out of my city or my state or my country due to some assholes winning an election and passing some crazy laws that are clearly unconstitutional you got to be kidding me.

As a citizen in the US I am under no obligation to not use the power of jury nullification when in my opinion alone it is call for on a jury.




0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 05:11 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
Guilty or not guilty of what? the charges as laid in the original post? in that jurisdiction with those precise facts?

In that case, the jury must find her guilty. Juries have to respond to the case and the law in front of them. They are not tasked to be law-makers. It's not a matter of personal preference.


Rubbish. Juries have changed the law on many occasions. Very few prosecutors will put another racist slagging off on a football pitch before a jury again. They might even claim to have had a hand in ending capital punishment here.

That's why we have juries.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 05:24 pm
@spendius,
Two policeman once ran on a football pitch and arrested a footballer who had just punched an opponent in the face. Hard. It was on TV. The evidence of assault was irrefutable. I've seen a few similar incidents in NFL games.

It did not go to court. No jury, except one composed of 12 silly females on a righteous sanctimony fest, would convict. Whatever the judge said and he can declare as many mistrials as he likes.

Of course when women take over it will all be different.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Aug, 2012 06:02 pm
@spendius,
Overt take over is not required as we see in the sorry state of America's young men today. Train em young is working out just fine for the man hating bitches, as fathers have largely abdicated their duties to raise boys who will grow up to know how to deal with women as equals.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2012 02:31 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
man hating bitches

You know, hawkeye, I have not heard a single woman (say nothing of quite a few men who have responded to this thread) refer to men as women hating bastards, or anything like that ....

Nor have I heard a single woman on this thread (or anywhere else on A2K) gloat about ******* male teachers, or males of any other profession, for that matter. And then claim that those women enjoyed being fucked by an obvious woman hater. Yet a male poster here has has claimed that that was his experience. And we are supposed to tolerate that in the process of this discussion? Neutral

Most posters here (both men & women) have agreed that Brittni Colleps's year jail term is excessive.
Given that most of us hold that view, what is the justification for the continued attacks on women on this thread?
I think the personal agendas of some men here are not exactly rational.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2012 02:51 am
@msolga,
Rapist boy there is one sick puppy--i don't know why you waste your time on him. He won't stop hating women and ranting about them.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2012 02:54 am
@Setanta,
But it is not just hawkeye, if you've followed this thread.

The (small, I'll admit) brigade of what I'd call "women loathers" here twist so many threads (or try to) to their own agendas.

The sad thing about this thread is that it is about very important issues which school are forced to cope with.

Misogynistic attitudes don't help, in any way, for schools to cope cope with these sorts of problems.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Aug, 2012 03:00 am
@msolga,
So? If you mean Bill and Spurious, they're two peas in a pod--a pair of misogynistic idiots. I say, don't waste your time. It's your call, of course.
 

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