15
   

I never paid less than 13% in Taxes

 
 
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 12:30 pm
@DrewDad,
Your right it doesn't because taxes have been low for over decade and still some companies go overseas to get even lower taxes in those countries and get deferral on taxes here at home. Romney wants to make it so that companies never have to pay taxes here by doing away with the deferrals.

Romney’s New Tax Incentive for Outsourcing U.S. Jobs

0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 12:32 pm
@DrewDad,
You think with higher taxes, that off-shoring is going to get any better? It can only get worse.

Part of the argument now is that there isn't enough investment going on. This is mostly due to the uncertainty in taxes right now. The Bush tax cuts have only been extended for short periods of time and could very well end for everyone, not just the wealthy, Capital Gains taxes are due to go up at the end of this year as well. Neither of these things provide stability in our current setting or economic environment, and just kicking them down the road discourages investment in the places it is currently needed.

revelette
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 02:51 pm
@Baldimo,
The Bush tax cuts were cut in 2001 and 2003 and counting, a long time for record profit making companies to be "uncertain."
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 03:41 pm
The 2001 and 2003 Bush Tax Cuts and Deficit
Reduction

Thomas L. Hungerford
Specialist in Public Finance
July 18, 2012

CRS Report for Congress
Prepared for Members and Committees of Congress

Quote:
Summary

A series of tax cuts were enacted early in the George W. Bush Administration by the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (EGTRRA) and the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003 (JGTRRA). These tax cuts, which are collectively known as the Bush tax cuts, were originally scheduled to expire at the end of 2010. These tax provisions were extended until the end of 2012 at an estimated cost of $408 billion. Beginning in 2013, many of the individual income tax parameters (such as tax rates) will revert back to 2000 levels. One legislative proposal introduced in the 112th Congress, H.R. 6104 (introduced by Representative Cedric Richmond), would extend the 2001, 2003, and 2009 tax cuts for taxpayers with income below $500,000 for another year. A draft proposal by Senator Harry Reid would extend the tax cuts for taxpayers with income below $200,000 (for singles) or $250,000 (for married couples) for another year, but set a top income tax rate on qualified dividends of 20%.

The 2010 debate over the fate of the Bush tax cuts took place when the economy was underperforming, the unemployment rate was high, and the federal deficit was large. The U.S. economy was in a severe recession from December 2007 to June 2009. The unemployment rate reached a high of 10.2% in October 2009, and it is currently still over 8%. As a result of reduced economic activity and government efforts to stimulate the economy, the federal budget deficit increased from 1.2% of GDP in FY2007 to 9.9% of GDP in FY2009. Most economic forecasts suggest the economic and budget outlook will likely be characterized by high unemployment, sluggish economic growth, and relatively large budget deficits. Consequently, the 2012 debate over the fate of the Bush tax cuts is also likely to take place in a bleak economic and fiscal environment.

There are several options that Congress may consider regarding the Bush tax cuts, and each of the options strikes a different balance between fostering economic growth and restoring fiscal sustainability. Allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire as scheduled will somewhat improve the fiscal condition by increasing tax revenue, but could retard the economic recovery. At the other extreme, permanently extending all of the Bush tax cuts would not undercut the economic recovery, but would somewhat worsen the longer-term fiscal outlook and possibly signal a lack of progress in dealing with the long-term fiscal situation. Permanently extending the Bush tax cuts could increase federal debt by almost $3 trillion over the next 10 years.

It is often argued that increasing tax rates will reduce consumer spending in the short term, and work effort, saving and investment—all key components of economic growth—in the long term. In an underemployed economy, short-term spending increases and tax cuts are expected to facilitate job creation, reduce unemployment, and increase output. The main argument against allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire at the end of 2010 was the weak recovery and the fear of pushing the economy back into recession, an argument likely to be made in 2012. Once the economy has recovered from the recession, however, long-term economic growth will be facilitated by increasing work effort, saving, and investment. It is often argued that increasing tax rates will reduce these long-term economic growth components. Economic research, however, suggests that modest tax rate increases would have little negative impact on long-term economic growth and job creation.


(more at the source)
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 04:24 pm
@revelette,
This article is pushing in the right direction but is failing to take into account that the tax cuts first took effect in 2001 and 2003 and the problem didn't start till 2007 and later. The budget deficit in 2007 was 1.2% of GDP and in 2009 it was 9.9% It wasn't the lack of tax flow, it was an increase in spending from 2007-2009.

Can you tell me where budgets and spending bills originate?
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 06:48 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
It wasn't the lack of tax flow, it was an increase in spending from 2007-2009.


Bullshit - the tax flow decreased significantly after the financial crash. The amount of income taxes collected fell by almost 25% from 2007-2009:

http://taxfoundation.org/article/summary-latest-federal-individual-income-tax-data-0#table1

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 06:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
What's also true is that the national debt as a percentage of GDP also increased, because of the Great Recession. When the GDP falls like it did after 2007, the total debt as a percentage increases dramatically. You can't blame Obama for this, because he inherited the Great Recession from GW Bush.

rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 07:55 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I think you need to complete the circle and acknowledge that it's those who have the most influence in Congress (the richest of the rich) who have lobbied to have the tax code become what it is. Congress is only beholding to the taxpayers on election day. Every other day belongs to the lobbyists.

I know that. And I agree. I've been posting videos of Larry Lessig's lecture on exactly that issue, for some time now. It applies once again.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 08:40 am
Here's the video again. I really think as many people as possible should see this. Only by making these problems visible to people can we ever hope to find a way to solve them. I hope people can make time to give this video a look.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 08:47 am
@cicerone imposter,
So if Obama gets reelected, who will he have inherited it from then?
Joe Nation
 
  5  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 09:57 am
@mysteryman,
Suppose you married somebody who was $100,000 in debt.

You decide to try to find ways of reducing that debt, but no matter what you offer to do, the new wife rejects your ideas. She will not get a second job, as you are willing to do, to bring in more income, she wants to just cut expenses, mostly in the things you like the most.

Throwing up your hands, you decide to divorce her, but the courts hold that the debts of the marriage are now all yours, so now the $100,000 debt is yours alone.

But, as you go back out into the dating world, are you going to tell people that the debt is only yours or would it be okay to put in in historical perspective and say that it was foisted off on you by your former spouse, but now you are dealing with it.

Let's give credit where credit is due: The Bush Tax Cuts will be the Bush Tax Cuts no matter how many times Obama is forced by a GOP Congress to extend them. The Bush Recession, and it's long echo through the past three years, will always be the Bush Recession, even after the economy is fully recovered.

Don't like that? Good. Don't vote GOP.

Joe(then you can watch things actually improve)Nation
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:16 am
@Joe Nation,
That's too much common sense in one post; they won't be able to comprehend what you said.

It's too spacial.

There's never a cure for st.........
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 11:54 am
@Joe Nation,
No matter what CI says, I understand what you are saying, and I do understand what you mean.
However, I am not disputing the Bush recession, nor am I disputing when it occurred.
However, I think you misunderstood my question.

IF Obama gets reelected, then who will he blame for the poor economy?
He cant say hi inherited it from Bush, because its been Obama's economic policies in force since he presented his first budget to congress.
He cant blame the repubs totally, because for his first 2 years the dems controlled every part of the congress and he still didnt accomplish what he wanted.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 12:08 pm
@mysteryman,
mm wrote,
Quote:
IF Obama gets reelected, then who will he blame for the poor economy?


See! He still doesn't understand the implications of GW Bush's tax cuts, the two wars that were never funded, and the Great Recession that impacted most Americans from their loss of equity in their homes and stock market investments.

mm doesn't understand anything about economics; he thinks that the US is a stand alone economy - which it isn't.

He also doesn't understand that the US economy is performing at about peak considering the handicaps he inherited. The Euro economy grew at about 3.5% since the Great Recession; the US economy grew at twice that pace.



There's no cure for st.........
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 12:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

See! He still doesn't understand the implications of GW Bush's tax cuts, the two wars that were never funded, and the Great Recession that impacted most Americans from their loss of equity in their homes and stock market investments.

I'm no fan of Bush, but to be fair those aren't all Bush's fault either. Clinton was in office when the Glass-Steagall act was undermined. But no single action by any president (or even Congress) over the years did ALL the damage. It was an accumulation of failures and bad decisions over the span of decades which allowed it to happen. And at its root, this can probably be attributed to the corrupting influence of Lobbying (money) on congress more than anything else.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 12:43 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
I'm no fan of Bush, but to be fair those aren't all Bush's fault either. Clinton was in office when the Glass-Steagall act was undermined. But no single action by any president (or even Congress) over the years did ALL the damage. It was an accumulation of failures and bad decisions over the span of decades which allowed it to happen. And at its root, this can probably be attributed to the corrupting influence of Lobbying (money) on congress more than anything else.


I agree with the first part of this post completely, Rosborne. The only part I disagree with is the focus on the presidency and the congress. One of the main reasons for all the economic upheaval is the impact of a technology progressing in a geometric pattern. We have developed our technology in order to make less work for humans. We have succeeded. There is less work for humans. And we are treating it as a disaster, rather than making the societal transformation needed to treat it as the beneficial development it actually is.

We all should be working much, much less (as Keynes predicted we would)...and we should all be living a much more plentiful and bountiful existence (as Keynes predicted we would). But we can only do that if we make systemic changes of monumental proportions.

As of now, we are unwilling to do so...and there is not a politician in existence at the moment who will recommend that we do.

We are fucked. And we are being fucked by ourselves.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 12:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
And we will probably continue to wage war on fictitious boogie men in order to keep our industrial-military complex thriving.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 12:53 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
We are fucked. And we are being fucked by ourselves.

In a democratic system (even a representative republic) it's difficult to put all the blame on the government without putting some of the blame on the voters (or the non-voters).

However, it's also possible for systems (political systems in this case) to be corrupted in such a way that the self-correcting mechanisms of democratic activity are effectively hindered.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 12:54 pm
@rosborne979,
Okay, I agree with your thesis; it was not "all" GW Bush's fault, but he was the one who implemented those 2001-2003 tax cuts and didn't pay for those two wars. When the economy tanked, the deficit represented a larger portion of our GDP. Those actions exacerbated our debt.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2012 05:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You are wrong, he didn't inherit any thing from Bush, he was a member of Congress that voted on and passed the spending bills during Bush's last term of office. Unless he voted against the spending bill all those years, he was working with a frame work he helped put into place prior to taking office. He knew exactly what he was getting into, he didn't come into office after being a Governor or a business man, he came into office after having served 4 years in the Senate. Remember the Senate is the last place a spending bill gets voted on before being signed by the President.

If anything was inherited it was his own voting record. Don't ever forget, the Dems held a majority in Congress, they were not the minority party.
 

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