10
   

What is truth?

 
 
Torii
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 07:28 pm
@Rorschach,
That makes the most sense for now. Nice profile pic.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 08:45 pm
@Torii,
Actually his comment is rather vague and uninformative...it sums up the epistemic problem in layman terms with a twist of lemon sirop for common sense...glad you like it though... Wink
Torii
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Sep, 2012 09:06 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
My problem was if universal truths could be attained using science. Science do try to get close to it by testing hypothesis in different angles and see if it holds the truth value of null or one. Creating models and see if it holds the test of time, as I suggested.

He's the only way who suggested that it's similar to y=1/x, as x gets larger y gets near zero. We can't say it becomes zero, but only suppose that it get towards to zero. limits to infinity of 1/x must be taken to get to zero. Since reaching infinity, to the above metaphor, for us humans in not possible, we can only say we can get really close to it, but there maybe some exception we haven't foreseen or discovered.

If you have any important suggestions or disagree with any of this please share your views. I'm interested in reading them.
Torii
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Sep, 2012 02:52 pm
@Torii,
Dr James Grime talks about a different type of infinity.

0 Replies
 
JHuber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Sep, 2012 11:08 pm
Quote:
So what is the difference between subjective truth and objective truth? Is it such that subjective truth is what is true about a subject and an objective truth is that what is true about an object? If so, then aren't subjects some special kind of objects, and therefore, are all truth really objective?

The way I have it is that a subjective truth is "right" while an objective truth is "true." For example, in a baseball game if a pitch is thrown that is outside the strike zone and the umpire calls it a strike it is "right" that it is a strike even though it is not a "true" strike. It's not that subjects are some special kind of object, objects are special kinds of subjects. Objects have no emotional ramifications, subjects can. When we say "an objective point of view" that means from the point of view of something that has no bias, no emotional ramifications. Umpires are not supposed to have bias but they are subjects (not objects), so an umpire's view is subjective even though it is supposed to be objective. Therefore, a subjective truth is biased (or biasable) while an objective truth is not.

0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  2  
Reply Thu 13 Sep, 2012 11:24 pm
@Torii,
All scientific truths are provisional. That's the basis for progress. Only ideologies create what they claim to be permanent and absolute Truths.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 Sep, 2012 02:59 pm

natural truth is that , no matter how you look at it , it is what it is
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2012 12:02 am
@north,
What's "natural truth?"
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2012 12:20 am
@cicerone imposter,
No doubt North's answer contains the assumption that "is-ness" has nothing to do with the observer of "it". This myth comes from a misunderstanding of the phenomenon of "surprise". What the "surprised observer" fails to understand is that his perceptual apparatus needs to be in a particular receptive state, or have particular characteristics in order to interact with what we call "the world". Dogs were unlikely to have been surprised by the discovery of X-rays, and are we not dogs by another name ?
0 Replies
 
Jet Fire
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2012 06:50 am
@Torii,
Science can never prove anything to be true; it can only demonstrate that a hypothesis is robust by extensively testing it and failing to disprove the
hypothesis. That is the reason why science is an evolving field - the state of our knowledge is constantly changing.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2012 01:43 pm
@Jet Fire,
Very good. Let me repeat myself: all knowledge is provisional and everthing is impermanent.
BTW, have you tried for sheet music sharmusic.com ?
Jet Fire
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2012 03:44 pm
@JLNobody,
Sorry, I was just putting it in more specific terms, although they're the same message. I just wanted to make sure that the Torii's metaphor with the limit is an inaccurate depiction. A little bit better metaphor, I think, would be trying to find a needle in the universe, while being blind folded.

Have replied to your question on the music thread. I don't want any moderators slapping my hand for going off topic.
Val Killmore
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Sep, 2012 08:20 pm
@Jet Fire,
Moderator slapping your hand?

No, over here, you only get slapped if you try to sell spam.
0 Replies
 
think rethink
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Apr, 2017 01:40 pm
@Torii,
Reality, is real to itself.

Truth, is an attitude, and is true to the consumer.

Truth is an attempt to reach reality.

Truth is a subjective experience, objective truth is universal reality,
Not personal truth.

Both, truth and reality,
Can be an empty verbal claim only,
Both can be distorted and misrepresented, faked and abused.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Sun 23 Apr, 2017 06:19 am
Truth is the NECESSARY perceptual relation between observer and observed. In this sense, even illusions are true illusions.
Awareness of the perceptual functional usefulness of our beliefs is irrelevant to state that every perceptual event is a true event. Thus truth is not knowledge about facts but rather the acknowledgment of perceptual fact itself.
Truth as correlation of fact and knowledge is unknowable. It can't be that!
This is not to state that there aren't any facts, quite the opposite, everything are facts, and truth is everywhere. What is meant here, in this odd small pseudo disertation before lunch, is that we can't quite order to the last digit the relation between events. Nonetheless we can recognise their patterns in usefull ways. Those are enough to our needs, and those like everything else, are true!
think rethink
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Apr, 2017 11:09 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Well said Phil.
I think that truth points towards a certain type of info.

A true imagination,
A true dream,
A true assumption,
A true belief.

When someone claims to be telling the truth.
It points towards a statement, and towards the type of info it contains.

Claiming I believe truthfully such and such,
While it actually is an unprocessed theory,
Isn't considered truth.

Because nacked truth is meaningless, just like the sentence go over there, is meaningless if over there isn't pointed at.
(He could have said nothing, or no more than go)
it only carries any substance, if it implies to what it's directed at.

What happens when people aren't aware of the above?
Truth and false become synanimous in character, and are only distinguished through parental nurture and education (meaning the child understands how to treat the applied label, but who decides what to label as what and how or why to identify it as such,
The child is clueless.
It isn't even aware, that there is an experience behind the label,
A journey of examination.
That truth and false are realized personally and isn't applicable universally).

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Apr, 2017 08:33 am
@think rethink,
My position is problematic because I dont give any more importance to the Subject and the "I" than I give to Nature at large. While I don't deny Phenomenology I have a very different take on it. Both rationalists and empiricists are wrong.
Subject and Nature are not apart but the Subject is a subset of Nature with constrinctions and a particular pov. The subject-Nature interaction is objective and Necessary. The perceptual result is limited but not false.Its incompleteness, or better put, dependence on larger scale systems renders experiencing as knoweledge limited to functional povs of interest rather then holistic "perspectives". A contradiction in terms as perspective already requires a specific interactive approach. Truth in the old sense, the Complete version is a zero sum of povs. Balanced and null. Its own.
think rethink
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Apr, 2017 08:23 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Wish I understood your response (I have zero formal education), it seemed impressive though.

Maybe the following is related (my apology).
To me, the objective never intersects with the subjective.

While subjective is the absolute personal truth (provided it isn't perceived with an objective attitude, meaning,
It is left unprocessed)

The objective is never experienced and therefore does not exist.

It only matters technically and indirectly (never simultaniousely with the subjective experience) and is embedded in the past and future (both are delusions).

And if someone does combine the two,
It is curropted verbal expression,
Simply, describing the subject with abused language and confused terminology .
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Apr, 2017 10:00 pm
@think rethink,
Simply put, the objective doesn't have bias.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Apr, 2017 05:28 am
@think rethink,
You don't need formal education. The future is not formal for the most part anyway...
I suppose you agree a subjective experience is itself an object right? It does happen to you doesn't it? The relation between subject and nature forms a set from which your own experiencing is proof. Not even talking social behaviour but your own experiencing...Subjective experience does not need any proof to yourself as it is a naked given.
If you believe on the classical aproach that objective and subjective never intercept you ought to postulate an infinite spin of mind regressions from which your very own experience is the dream of someone else...and even if so, lets grant you the point tor a minute, what to make of the archetype itself of each experiencing? There is no ownership of experience in a determined world context, just process.
The fact of the matter is that appealing to subjectivy without recognizing objects is meaningless.
 

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