15
   

How do liberals guage success?

 
 
ehBeth
 
  5  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 04:38 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
? What were they doing while waiting for the govt to help them build their business?


probably running a nice little business. then government money came along and they could expand.

it's a good thing

but you can't slice and dice it, and say it's only good to take government money in some circumstances

if you do (not you McG, the global you), you turn into an awesome ad for Obama
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 04:52 pm
@ehBeth,
No, I would assume he out the money to good use. I have not once said that businesses succeed in a vacuum. That would be a silly thing to suggest. But, I have also not agreed that businesses succeed because of government. I know too many people running businesses that do nothing but fight against govt intervention, OSHA fines for ridiculous reasons, piles and piles of binders full of regulations, staff people dedicated to nothing but making sure govt forms are in order, etc.

I also don't want to be seen as an uncaring ogre when it comes to people on welfare. But... I also think people need to be motivated to not be on welfare. Assistance is good, lifestyle is bad...

Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 04:57 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
But, I have also not agreed that businesses succeed because of government.


That's funny, neither has Obama - or anyone else.

This is the problem with the whole line you are pushing - it's a straw man and always has been.

Cycloptichorn
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 04:59 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
I have not once said that businesses succeed in a vacuum. That would be a silly thing to suggest.


It would, indeed.

Quote:
But, I have also not agreed that businesses succeed because of government. I know too many people running businesses that do nothing but fight against govt intervention, OSHA fines for ridiculous reasons, piles and piles of binders full of regulations, staff people dedicated to nothing but making sure govt forms are in order, etc.



Without personal ingenuity, you probably won't get anywhere.

With personal ingenuity and a functional government that allows you to pursue it, you probably will get somewhere.

With personal ingenuity and a dysfunctional government -- bad roads, rampant graft, insufficient food, unclean water, unchecked crime -- your personal ingenuity will most likely be stymied.

The message is that no man is an island -- we all have a role in helping each other.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 04:59 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
Assistance is good, lifestyle is bad...


Mr. Gilchrest kinda disagrees with you.


McGentrix wrote:
Gilchrest said. “ Shame on me if I didn’t use what’s available.”



He really said some marvellous stuff.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 05:14 pm
@McGentrix,
Is that fellow in your video a spokesperson for Obama? Is there a voice that says, "I'm Barack Obama and I approved this message?"

No?

Then that means you're pushing BS yet again.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 06:23 pm
@sozobe,
I dunno Soz. Even desolate landscapes have people that succeed. You would be hard pressed to find anyplace on earth where someone hasn't figured out how to succeed in something. Even without govt and roads and bridges...

But, the message Obama was pandering was bigger then no man is an island. It was more more of a "No man is an island and those that succeed should pay more because of their success..."
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 06:25 pm
@ehBeth,
Meh. He works for a living.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 06:26 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Is that fellow in your video a spokesperson for Obama? Is there a voice that says, "I'm Barack Obama and I approved this message?"

No?

Then that means you're pushing BS yet again.


Look! Up in the sky! It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it was just the point of my comment zooming over your head... Even with a video you can't grasp it...
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 06:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
But, I have also not agreed that businesses succeed because of government.


That's funny, neither has Obama - or anyone else.

This is the problem with the whole line you are pushing - it's a straw man and always has been.

Cycloptichorn


Not really.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 06:55 pm
@McGentrix,
This brand of head-in-the-sand, deny-reality mentality kind of epitomizes Romney's "strategy" up to this point.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 06:59 pm
@McGentrix,
nah. you don't get to pick and choose who's a good guy for taking advantage of the government resources available to them and who's a naughty boy.

it's either a good thing or a bad thing.

praising one for taking $800,000 in government money and going all lifestyle on someone else? that's not on.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 07:59 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

nah. you don't get to pick and choose who's a good guy for taking advantage of the government resources available to them and who's a naughty boy.

it's either a good thing or a bad thing.

praising one for taking $800,000 in government money and going all lifestyle on someone else? that's not on.


Praising him? Who is doing that?

Quote:
Nevertheless, Gilchrist said on Monday that his message has not been “compromised” by the fact that he received the proceeds of tax-exempt bonds made possible by the federal government. He said the legal fees totaled about $12,000, wiping out any financial advantage he gained as a result of the lower interest rate.

“It was a loser, and I wish I had never done it,” he stated. “I bought some equipment with it.”


You do realize that you have to pay back bonds, right? It's are not free money to go buy cigarettes, booze and lottery tickets with.

Quote:
What is a Tax-Exempt Bond?

Tax-exempt bonds are debt securities issued by a state or local government development agency on behalf of a private business. Once issued, tax-exempt bonds are sold in the open market or purchased by investors or financial institutions. Interest income earned by the bond purchaser is exempt from state and local taxes, which allows the lender to pass savings to the borrower in the form of lower interest rates.

Tax-exempt bonds are similar to conventional loans. Bonds are not grants. Borrowers have to pay back the bond’s principal plus interest to the bond. Applicants have to demonstrate a strong business plan and project proposal, creditworthiness and strong financial statements. In addition, borrowers have to demonstrate how proposed projects will create jobs and positively impact the local economy. Unlike conventional loans, tax-exempt bonds typically offer longer-term financing at considerably lower rates than conventional financing allows.

Tax-exempt bonds are not for modest projects. Typically, bonds are intended to fund projects over a million dollars, but smaller, mini-bonds may be issued. In addition, the costs associated with tax-exempt bonds tend to be much higher than conventional loans because the business has to pay its own legal costs. Carefully consider your financing needs and your ability to pay tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees before jumping into tax-exempt bonds.


From the New Hampshire Business Finance Authority website
Quote:
Bond Financing
The BFA issues tax-exempt and taxable bonds for fixed asset expansion projects. Tax-exempt industrial development revenue bonds can be used by manufacturers for the acquisition, renovation and construction of buildings or the purchase of land and new equipment. Project sizes range from $500,000 to a federally imposed maximum of $20 million.

Non-profit organizations can use 501(c)(3) bonds to refinance existing debt, acquire, renovate and construct buildings, and purchase land and new equipment.


So he took a business loan, which is available to everyone BTW (so as you qualify I would I assume), and paid it back yet you want to compare him to generational welfare people? Not much of a comparison.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 08:13 pm
@McGentrix,
Well, I'm certainly not making that comparison. But I am claiming that someone who gets access to small business loans is getting help from the gov't. And it's pretty silly to turn around and use that guy as a spokesperson for the false point Romney is trying to make.

I'd really be interested to hear your take on what I wrote, re: how Bain used their LBO's to load companies up with debt and avoid taxes. I can provide you links to some articles about it if you need further confirmation that this was an explicit strategy they pursued for their own profits.

Cycloptichorn
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 08:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, I'm certainly not making that comparison. But I am claiming that someone who gets access to small business loans is getting help from the gov't. And it's pretty silly to turn around and use that guy as a spokesperson for the false point Romney is trying to make.

I'd really be interested to hear your take on what I wrote, re: how Bain used their LBO's to load companies up with debt and avoid taxes. I can provide you links to some articles about it if you need further confirmation that this was an explicit strategy they pursued for their own profits.

Cycloptichorn


I would most likely participate in a new thread regarding leveraged buyouts. I'd also be interested in reading about them, but not here. This thread has already been mugged.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 08:18 pm
@McGentrix,
Aw, I think folks have been doing well keeping it mostly on topic. But okay, I'll find up some articles to give us background on LBO's and Romney's experiences with them and start a new thread.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 08:37 pm
Here's a good comment I read on this topic:

Quote:
I'd rather stick to what Gilchrist said.“My father’s hands didn’t build this company? My hands didn’t build this company? My son’s hands aren’t building this company? …Through hard work and a little bit of luck, we built this business. Why are you demonizing us for it?” What about his workers? Their hands did nothing? I'm sure Gilchrist is getting a line of credit for operating expenses. So there's the banks hands helping. The gist of what Obama said is "No one makes it in this world alone." It's the truth. If that hurts your pride then maybe it's your conscience fighting for it's life.


Cycloptichorn
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 08:38 pm
@McGentrix,
Generational welfare people? How many of those are around now?. Exactly.

More bullsh*t from the bullsh*tter.
Rockhead
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 08:41 pm
@DrewDad,
they are the ones that buy all the cigarettes, booze, and lottery tickets, don't ya know...
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Jul, 2012 10:21 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
You start with a faulty premise about what Obama said then don't define success.


How is he supposed to both define it and ask liberals to? That doesn't make sense.
0 Replies
 
 

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