5
   

Proof the universe doesn't exist?

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 06:01 am
@browser32,
Quote:
What do you think of this?


I think it's a case of "what's outside the universe" only expressed in more technical terms.

Quote:
Thus, the powerset of U contains more elements in the universe than U


Could you have the set U without the powerset? I don't see the problem other than this: If you end up with a contradiction when calling the universe a set U, that doesn't mean that the universe doesn't exist, only that you can't think of it in terms of a finite set.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 08:08 am
@Cyracuz,
Have you seen the computer models that plot the locations of the observable galaxies in a 3d landscape?

You can see a clear distinction of grouping in certain areas. Cosmologists suggest that maybe these galaxies are being effected by "something" outside our universe to make them behave in such a way. They call this "dark flow".

0 Replies
 
uvosky
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Aug, 2012 05:51 am
@mark noble,
Placing something in a set , or assuming some things to consist a set never means that the ''thing(s)'' have strict boundaries
( example :- the set of real numbers)
0 Replies
 
Edward Fenel
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 09:08 am
The OP is correct, the Universe taken in its entireness is Nothing, or simply isn't.

Nothing and Everything are interchangeable words.

A little bit the same way that zero = sum of all numbers and their opposite (metaphorically)
Zero contains all the numbers. Every thing sums to Nothing.
Nothing contains every thing, Nothing is Everything, or simply isn't.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 10:09 am
@Edward Fenel,
You are totally confused.
Edward Fenel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 11:55 am
@cicerone imposter,
I'd be glad to change my mind.
Please copy paste a statement I said that you deem is False. And tell me why you think it is False.
Let's keep it simple...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 01:08 pm
@Edward Fenel,
Your previous post ending in 959 is a contradiction. If you can't see that, it'll be impossible to explain it.
Edward Fenel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Mar, 2016 01:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I see it and already justified why the contradiction is actually not one.

If YOU are unable to make a simple copy paste, not two, just one, explaining a statement you think is false, then you prove yourself wrong all alone. Without me needing saying anything. Smile
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Mar, 2016 06:07 am
@Edward Fenel,
I thought your calculations came from a theory that implies that opposites can contain one another or just another. Like dry contains wet, silence contains noise, darkness contains light, therefore nothing contains something etc. etc.
But I think "nothing" is a manmade concept because his eyes, ears and senses have limited perception, therefore he will use the word nothing to full in this void of limitation.
There are things that exist that our natural senses can't detect...
Edward Fenel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Mar, 2016 02:36 pm
@Amoh5,
Quote:
But I think "nothing" is a manmade concept because his eyes, ears and senses have limited perception, therefore he will use the word nothing to full in this void of limitation


We kind of agree!

Precision: I use two words "Every thing" to mean each of every single thing, whereas I use one word "Everything" to mean every thing taken altogether

Everything contains every thing, and Everything and Nothing are interchangeable words.

Amoh5, if every thing (all things) exist in the Universe, then where are they?
Admitedly, you do not see or perceive or are conscious of every thing.

Your consciousness is a point of view, literally.*
Your consciousness is hiding a part of Everything, and seeing another part of this Everything.

We agree when you say:
Quote:
limited perception
Yes, the part that you see is finite, therefore the part that is hidden is infinite. It is "Everything else", which is equivalent to "Nothing else" (since Everything is Nothing)

Can you see? The part that is hidden from your consciousness is Everything else, it is Nothing else.

Therefore we agree, Nothing represent all the things you are not conscious of. There are all there, hidden inside Nothing. Waiting for you to become conscious of them.
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2016 08:30 am
@Edward Fenel,
I read the source website you referenced. The author seems to philosophize in a somewhat abstract way. Something like Indian philosophy where they drift far away from normal lines of thought so to speak. Like what is he smoking or inhaling?
I thought maybe the rationale came from opposites containing one another like darkness contains light, silence contains noise, dry contains wet and so forth, so nothing contains something. But apparently this assumed rationale has drifted quite far from conventional thinking.
I am a Christian and I think parentality created us and all life. That is God Heavenly Father and Goddess Earthly Mother.
God is the sky and all open spaces in the universe, Mother Earth is all earthly material in the universe.
Even though Christian theology doesn't mention Mother Earth, I do think however she is there.
Yes as a Christian, I only give reverence to the spirit of God through Lord Jesus.
To assume that "nothing" created us seems very lifeless and bleak...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2016 10:20 am
@Amoh5,
Quote:
The earliest undisputed evidence of life on Earth dates at least from 3.5 billion years ago, during the Eoarchean Era after a geological crust started to solidify following the earlier molten Hadean Eon. There are microbial mat fossils found in 3.48 billion-year-old sandstone discovered in Western Australia.
Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbiogenesisWikipedia
0 Replies
 
Edward Fenel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2016 04:04 pm
@Amoh5,
Hahaha I don't know what he smokes but I would buy some!

You say "To assume that "nothing" created us seems very lifeless and bleak..."

But time is "something". Nothing means no time. Creation is a process across time.
Nothing does not create anything, rather it is every thing already. Does it make sense or do I fail to be clear?

Another way to see it, is to say that Nothing (or Everything) is God.
How surprising would that be?
Isn't God infinite? Isn't God inimaginable? Isn't God Everything? You said it yourself, God is the sky, the sun, the Earth... it is Me and You as well.

If you are christian, this philosophy is definitely not in contradiction.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2016 04:21 pm
@Edward Fenel,
Quote:
"rather it is every thing already"
True. All the foundation (basic elements) is already present in our environment. Rather than creation, I prefer the use of the word evolution.
0 Replies
 
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Apr, 2016 11:54 pm
@Edward Fenel,
I see parentality as the giver of all life including us. The sky and the earth is merely the ultimate parentality of all life, the ultimate Father and Mother. But it is true there is "nothing" beyond them, no existence no life. We always need a Father and Mother to give life which is the sky and the earth.
The sky gives us air and water, the earth gives us food(plants) and warmth(fire and electricity).
I know I seem like an usual sort of Christian, but I do give reverence only to the spirit of God through Lord Jesus.
Believing in "nothing" instead of parentality seems like one is lost, or far away from reality...
Edward Fenel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 06:49 am
@Amoh5,
Imagine you had no physical body, and you were only a consciousness. And imagine you had an infinitely powerful imagination. You can imagine anything, invent anything, create anything.

Because you have no physical body, you have no eyes, no skin to touch, no ears… In fact, you have no contact with the exterior world at all, if there was one. It is as if the external world did not exist in the first place (and in fact, there is no external world, but that is another question).

So you are only You, by yourself, with a limitless and infinitely powerful imagination. It sounds a bit boring, doesn’t it?


What would you do? What would you imagine?

There is no right nor wrong answer. It is a choice. So let us choose an example: let us say that you would imagine empty space, and inside this space You would imagine a planet, stars, galaxies.

You can imagine every single atom of an entire galaxy. How? Because you have an infinitely powerful imagination. No limits.

Indeed in this example you have no memory limit, contrary to physical computers. In this example your consciousness is not created by a brain. Remember we said in this example you would be a consciousness without physical body. Not even a brain, no thing exists to limit you. Just pure consciousness.

Once you have imagined a planet in a galaxy, you could imagine yourself walking on the beach of that planet.

How real does it feel? You choose.

Admittedly, right now when you imagine yourself walking on the beach, you might feel the warmth of the sun on your skin, or hear the ocean, but it does not feel as real as it would if you actually were on the beach.

However in our example with the infinitely powerful consciousness, you would not have this problem. You would be able to choose precisely how much real it feels. In fact, you could choose to make it feel even more real than your reality feels right now. Why not? No limits.

So you would imagine yourself walking on the beach, and it would feel totally real.

But why would you limit yourself to only one point of view? You have an infinitely powerful and limitless imagination, so you can imagine yourself being another person simultaneously. And you would choose to imagine yourself as a second person walking on the same beach, talking to the other one. And more, you would imagine being 8 billions different people on a planet.

Let us say you imagine yourself being a human who is rock-climbing a mountain. But you know you have created the mountain, you know you have created the sky, the gravity, you control everything. Where is the fun? You want to feel the excitement of being suspended in the air, you want to feel the fear of falling, the vertigo, the adrenaline. But you control everything here and there is nothing to be afraid of.

So how do you do? Simple: you choose to forget. You choose to forget that you created everything and how to control. You choose to forget who You are, and by doing so, you allow yourself to live an adventure inside the world you have created: a life.

The Universe is actually entirely You. And this example we did here is actually not an example: this is what is happening, right now.
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 07:43 am
@Edward Fenel,
You have a pretty wild and wonderous imagination my friend. But I do wonder whether it works for you in the real world. We are living in a hard work universe where success can only be accomplished by hard work not on wishful thinking or imaginings.
I too have the ability to imagine but it gets squashed by the reality of going to work everyday so I can pay my bills etc. etc.
My imaginings also get squashed by my Christian consciousness, especially if they are wasteful or unwell imaginings.
Yes without my Christian consciousness I wouldn't know what is normal, abnormal, crazy, decent or whatever.
But believing in "nothing" or "imagination" reminds me of when I wasn't a Christian, doing drugs etc etc
My allegiance belongs only to God our Father of all creation through Lord Jesus...
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 08:01 am
@Edward Fenel,
Quote:
Imagine you had no physical body, and you were only a consciousness. And imagine you had an infinitely powerful imagination. You can imagine anything, invent anything, create anything.

So you are only You, by yourself, with a limitless and infinitely powerful imagination. It sounds a bit boring, doesn’t it?

What would you do? What would you imagine?
Yes, boring indeed.
But your imagination stopped short of where it could go. If I am the being you imagined, I would not stop short of imagining it. That is short of the full experience I want. I'd create the universe AND those 8 billion other beings. No need to imagine, no need to forget. I'd go for reality over imagination..
Edward Fenel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 11:56 am
@Amoh5,
Quote:
We are living in a hard work universe where success can only be accomplished by hard work not on wishful thinking or imaginings.


That is precisely what you are imagining. Don't you see?

You chose to experience how it feels to be in a world of hard work. And so you are.
Edward Fenel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2016 11:58 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
If I am the being you imagined, I would not stop short of imagining it. That is short of the full experience I want. I'd create the universe AND those 8 billion other beings.


What makes you believe that is not what you are currently doing?

The "Leadfoot" that is thinking right now is just a small subpart of the real you, and "Leadfoot" does not see that actually, the real you did not stop short of imagining it.
 

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