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Why are things the way they are....

 
 
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2017 03:15 pm
...and not some other way?

Of course I wanna go Google it out, but I'm not quite sure what to ask for; so with all the scientific knowhow concentrated at a2k, I hope you can help me

What I mean, is, are things like they seem to be because they were made that way by some kinda thoughtful force, or are they the way they look, at least at present, because there isn't any other way they could have come about

Let's say, for instance, it's been discovered that some of the constants are what they are because at any other value they'd conflict with other sorts of constants. I suspect that's the case, but then my basic q would be answered if it were discovered that not a single constant could be different without some sorta conflict or contradiction with the value of another constant

So if that were the case, She had figgered things out and then created the Universe according to her notion of how things should be [which however I gotta concede, seems jus' fulla nonsensical assumptions]. Instead, we might then assume that the Univere has existed, in one form or another, forever: No contra nor para here, but the idea there has to be matter and space and so forth, and that things behave as they do, 'cause there's no choice

This isn't an attempt to disprove God atall, but merely a q for our tech-minded a2k'ers, hopin' somebody might come up with an existing theory that bears on my basic query. In fact in my youth I was an athiest, becoming agnostic as the possibility of a Major Mentor became more probable, and finally as a pantheist, allowing for Her to exist or not depending entirely on how you'd define Her existence

However, that's all another matter, but as an an apodictical existential pantheist one I mention so your r'ligi's TAATANE or on the other hand its deniers won't spend their response tearin' me apart for believin' or not believin'

So again,is there any present thinkin' in my direction and if so how is it described so I can look it up

Thanks all
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Type: Question • Score: 1 • Views: 1,557 • Replies: 29
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dalehileman
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 16 Sep, 2017 09:55 pm
@dalehileman,
Wow, that's some three OP's in a week, and not a single one has disappeared !! [yet] So Mgmt, I suppose you must have a whole new crew to replace those 6 old ladies sittin' 'round that table....

Just kiddin, again, Mgmt, I realize what a tough job
Ponderer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2017 12:24 am
@dalehileman,
This may provide more questions than answers. Like "Why are roses beautiful to human beings' eyes?" "Why is it that the smell of a certain food or the sound of a certain song can make us have a feeling in the area of our heart?"
This is the way I see things - With my eyes. That in itself is quite remarkable.
All the scientists in all the world, with all their latest knowledge and gizmo-gadgets cannot make a butterfly that can find it's way to a particular flower. Much less build a nano-particle seed that will grow a flower.
With their finest instruments scientists look inward and outward discovering what God has made. There. I wrote it. Whether some believe it or not , or like it or not ( which they are free to do ) this place where you and I live is "one nation, under God".
For anyone who doesn't understand the "big bang" theory, that means that scientists, after studying the motion of stars, have concluded that they are all moving away from each other ( "expanding universe " ) , thus proving that all matter originated from one point. To me, that doesn't contradict or disprove
the idea that God spoke the universe into existence by saying "Let there be LIGHT !"
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2017 01:05 am
@dalehileman,
Quote:
Man is the measure of all things
Protagoras c450 BC

The first level of measurement is 'nominal' i.e 'naming something' or jointly attributing thinghood to what we see as significant aspects of our human experience. And as our experiences develop with our cognitive evolution, 'significance' changes.
If 'man' was different, 'things' would be different.
It's as simple as that !
dalehileman
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2017 10:57 am
@Ponderer,
Quote:
This may provide more questions than answers.
S'okay Pond

Quote:
Like "Why are roses beautiful to human beings' eyes?"
Good q Pond oft asked myself. Technically I suppose it's evolution. The girls liked to be f'd more by the boys who were more cheerful and drawn to nature

........
Quote:
... my eyes. That in itself is quite remarkable.
Interesting you should so observe. Science has long pondered the q, why the brain, the eyes, etc, are so much more elaborate than need be for mere survival

Quote:
All the scientists...cannot make a butterfly....Much less build a nano-particle seed ....
Indeed well put. They can't even solve the smallest simplest probs, such as the jumpin' up nd down of this window, or correst the obvious missp of 'and'


Quote:
...s scientists look .... what God has made. There. I wrote it.
Pond like I said you put things well. But can you help me convince the Software Morons to somehow put a stop to all that jumpin'

Quote:
....... "one nation, under God".
But: Why doesn't She do something about all those software glitches


Quote:
.... "big bang" .... ( "expanding universe " ) .... all matter originated from one point. ....doesn't contradict ...that God spoke the universe into existence....
No it doesn't but it doesn't prove either
dalehileman
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2017 11:01 am
@fresco,
Quote:
If 'man' was different, 'things' would be different.
To be sure

Quote:
It's as simple as that !
Not so sure
0 Replies
 
Ponderer
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2017 01:24 pm
@dalehileman,
Maybe God puts the glitches in there to keep us from thinkin' we're so smart.
dalehileman
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 17 Sep, 2017 04:41 pm
@Ponderer,
Quote:
Maybe God
Wasn't it The Devil
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 05:49 am
@Ponderer,
Quote:
Maybe God puts the glitches in there to keep us from thinkin' we're so smart.
Sometimes he puts, and sometimes he allows glitches.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 07:03 am
@dalehileman,
I like your thinking on the possibility that all the fine tuned parameters of physics had to be the values we see in order to achieve equalibrium. Lots of physicists more qualified than me have said that they see no reason that had to be the case, but they could be wrong.

On that possibility I could discount the possibility of design in the fine tuning argument.

But! The domain of biology/genetics calls for a completely different sort of 'tuning' in that it requires a precise organization of parameters that cannot be explained by the 'laws' of physics. I do not mean the individual chemical processes of biology, I mean the orchestration of them which requires multiple levels of encoding. And we KNOW this encoding is not arbitrary, it has a syntax that cannot be explained by the laws of physics.

One level of 'natural' fine tuning I could discount as happenstance but these multiple levels of 'fine tuning' stretch my credibility to the breaking point. Somebody who knew what they were doing left their fingerprints all over this place.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 07:37 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I like your thinking on the possibility that all the fine tuned parameters of physics had to be the values we see in order to Achieve equilibrium. Llots of physicist more qualified than me has said they see no reason dad had to be the case but they could be wrong.
. Those same physicists that see no reason the parameters had to be what they are, also cannot give us a reason why we even experience gravity the strong nuclear force the weak nuclear force and electromagnetism. It's kind of like asking a blind person why Can I see and they say I see no reason for seeing. So now that blind person has no reason for asking for a reason. If you don't ask the question you won't get an answer.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 08:33 am
@brianjakub,
I'm not sure if you are implying those physicists are blind or I am. But I think the physicists had good reason to question the inevitability of those atomic force values, not to mention the speed of light.

The possibility of variation of those values is what gave rise to the idea of 'multiverses'. They need to exist (at least in their mind) in order to dispose of the appearance of design.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 09:23 am
@Leadfoot,
I am not saying you're blind. You once were blind, and now you see. I am giving an analogy to you and others, so maybe each everyone can come to understand your frustration with the scientific community doing that is doing the advanced research in particle physics, relativity, and evolutionary biology. They are highly intelligent gifted researchers, that have worked hard inside the system that has developed over years of consensus interpretation of data. They now have complete authority over the system and how the data is interpreted because of consensus wit their peers.

You and i are supporting that consensus with our tax dollars, and by submitting to how the educational system in our country is run. We agree with almost every interpretation of the scientific data that is provided by them, basically because most interpretations are straight forward and true. But their consensus interpretation that there is no designer is not true. You are right to point out that the complexity being revealed by evolutionary biology has (to a reasonable person) proven that interpretation wrong, and is vividly portraying the bigotry of the scientific community. I have a very good understanding of QM, relativity, and entropic gravity. I have completed the model of entropic gravity in my mind, and can picture it. It is going to reveal layers of complexity in space and matter that will rival that being revealed by evolutionary biology. The only thing slowing the development of entropic gravity and evolutionary biology is bigotry.

A blind person can be content not knowing how important sight was to developing the elevator they are riding in as they head to the top floor of skyscraper. But, not knowing and not needing to know and even taking it faith is ok. Denying that the person next to them in the elevator can see, and that ability to see is important to the elevator operating in the skyscraper is not good. Telling every other blind person they don't have know and should not be educated about sight in school is more wrong. Telling scientists we shouldn't even be looking for cures to blindness is down right evil.

Maybe a few people who can see should get to join the group of peers, instead of the blind leading the people who can see. And maybe the people who can see should take the time to educate themselves so they deserve a seat at the table and then, fight for it.

Believers are such self deprecating weenies sometimes.
dalehileman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 10:36 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I like your thinking
Golly Foot, Lead, but you've made my day if not the entire week

Quote:
I could discount the possibility of design...that cannot be explained by the 'laws' of physics
Yea, Lead, and still awful bothersome since the very existence of such a complex humanoid does in fact strongly suggest some sort of 'intelligent' design

Quote:
Somebody who knew what they were doing left their fingerprints
Sure as hell hafta agree. The big q is, if things the way they are, is the result of a cosmic evolution, how could the humanoid have been so important to the whole process as to be one of its ends

I've thought about this a lot and I'm mystified. I can only conclude as an apodictical existential pantheist that She is a perfectly natural phenom, and then so are we
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 10:41 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
'multiverses'. They need to exist (at least in their mind) in order to dispose of the appearance of design.
Foot, again, I hear ya; as this very thought had occurred to me too. Shows how smart we both are. However, I doubt it [not that we're smart but that infinite no.] since there's a general rule that says the more complicated theory is probly wrong
dalehileman
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 10:52 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
But their consensus interpretation that there is no designer is not true.
But Brian the pantheist responds that there is or is not a design, there is or is not a God, is mostly a grammatical matter, that She [He/It] is All; that all the controversy about Her existence/Design is nonsense

Quote:
the bigotry of the scientific community
I'd agree the 'scientific community' suffers the same prob as the rest of us: that they can't escape a certain humanoid 'logic' that would place God as one entity and the Universe as another. Dualism is just a way we have of thinkin', and it's wrong...another way of sayinin', yes, Kub, Science is in that way fullavit

Quote:
Believers are such self deprecating weenies sometimes
But you must followup using language more in line with the understanding of the Average Clod [me]

...so, I'd write a book, except 1. at 86 with Alzie's, (a) I don't have time, (b) why bother if tomorrow morn I might wake up dead; and 2. I'm not sdmart enough

...although you are, I'm sure; no not bein' facetious, really mean it. When someone agrees with me he must be smart, maybe much more than me
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 01:48 pm
@dalehileman,
I refuse to believe that there aren't believing scientists working in the mainstream community that are just too afraid to stick their neck do some research that is honest enough to ask the right questions so we can get the right answers.
dalehileman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 02:25 pm
@brianjakub,
Brilliant obs, Brian. First they hafta 'stand how they haft learn a new way tyo think, not dualistic with Her on the one hand and the Universe oyn t'other

https://able2know.org/topic/416721-1
brianjakub
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 04:04 pm
@dalehileman,
Who is she?
Do you know?
dalehileman
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 29 Sep, 2017 05:35 pm
@brianjakub,
Quote:
Who is she?
She's It, All, Everything, the Universe
 

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