37
   

Mass Shooting At Denver Batman Movie Premiere

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:00 am
@OmSigDAVID,
No sweat Dave. I always have found that revving into people helps to get to know them faster than all that polite chit-chat.

From this distance it looks as if we have highlighted a particularly sticky point for the constitutionalists to think about.

But, as I have said, the FFs were not thinking of the Martha Stewarts of this world. Which leads me to suggest that your position needs to also approve of a class system similar to that of 1791. And the arrangements between the classes.

All the arguments for gun holding seem anachronistic to me except the fetishism one. Like the one for that satisfying sound door closure mechanics make when beautifully engineered and oiled.

Movie makers used to go around posh residences recording door closing sounds and then over-dubbing them on the doors used in the sets.

The idea that gun owning protects the people from the government is not only ridiculous in the practical sense but it is also ridiculous because it gives the government a motive to get rid of them. Particularly if it thinks there's a risk of social disorder, caused by oil shortages, in the medium term.

OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:24 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
There is no evidence that the assault weapons ban violates the US Constitution.
The fact that it was in place and never successfully challenged as a violation
of the 2nd amendment is rather telling, don't you think?

Qua what arms the people have rights to keep and bear,
the US Supreme Court said in US v. MILLER 3O7 US 174 (1939)
that they should be "ordinary military equipment ... AYMETTE v. STATE 2 Hump. [21 Tenn] 154, 158."

The AYMETTE case, which the Supreme Court approvingly adopted declares:
"the arms, the right to keep which is secured, are such as are usually employed
in civilized warfare, and that constitute ordinary military equipment
.

If the citizens have these arms in their hands,
they are prepared in the best possible manner
to repel any encroachments on their rights."
[emphasis added]

"Ordinary military equipment" = M-16s and M-4 Carbines (fully automatic)

Note that in HELLER,
the USSC adopted the point of vu
that the same way that the First Amendment applies
to modern communications, so also the 2nd Amendment
applies to modern guns.





David
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:27 am
@oralloy,
Quote:

Yes there is.

Would you care to cite the court case?
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:28 am
@oralloy,
Congratulations. You have admitted that the treaty is what you said it wasn't thereby contradicting yourself.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:30 am
@OmSigDAVID,
So tell us then David. Why am I not allowed to own an automatic weapon without a Federal license?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:36 am
@Atom Blitzer,
Atom Blitzer wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
First, an assault weapon is just a gun with certain harmless cosmetic features like a pistol grip and a flash suppressor.


Harmless parts, but the gun as a whole becomes lethal.


Wrong. The gun is already just as lethal without those harmless cosmetic features.

Adding those harmless cosmetic features does not make a gun become any more lethal.



Atom Blitzer wrote:
Fallacy of composition.


Wrong. There is no fallacy in pointing out that the government has no legitimate reason to ban harmless cosmetic features.



Atom Blitzer wrote:
You're an idiot.


You engage in namecalling because you are too stupid to come up with an intelligent argument.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:37 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
No sweat Dave. I always have found that revving into people helps to get to know them faster than all that polite chit-chat.

From this distance it looks as if we have highlighted a particularly sticky point for the constitutionalists to think about.

But, as I have said, the FFs were not thinking of the Martha Stewarts of this world. Which leads me to suggest that your position needs to also approve of a class system similar to that of 1791. And the arrangements between the classes.
It suffices that government has NO JURISDICTION
qua a citizen 's possession of defensive guns.





spendius wrote:
All the arguments for gun holding seem anachronistic to me except the fetishism one.
U say "anachronistic"; I say timeless -- immune to time,
like the principles of arithmetic.
It is the absolute right to self defense from the predatory violence of man or beast.





David


parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:41 am
@oralloy,
So let me get this straight then oralloy.
A flash suppressor has no purpose at all?
So when the government puts it on military weapons it is paying for something that is merely cosmetic. Shouldn't we eliminate it then since it is nothing but a give away to the gun manufacturer?
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:46 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
So tell us then David. Why am I not allowed to own an automatic weapon without a Federal license?
Because the liberals violated the Constitution in 1934
and this has not yet been rectified.

Maybe about 15 years ago, the gun freedom movement,
led by the 2nd Amendment Foundation and the NRA,
decided that it will be prudent to emulate
the labor movement of the 1930s thru 1950s
and the black movement against discrimination
in regard to proceding in minute increments of jurisprudential advancement; one thing at a time.

That plan remains in progress.





David
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:54 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
Yes there is.


Would you care to cite the court case?


My, that diversion is pretty clumsy.

If you have no argument against any of my points, you should just say so.




Incidentally, the Supreme Court will be ruling assault weapon bans unconstitutional within the next 10 years, and they will use the very arguments I posted here when they do it.

However, it isn't next on the agenda. The Supreme Court's next ruling on guns will be to force all jurisdictions in the nation to allow the general populace to carry guns in public.

Assault weapons might be up next up after that one though.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:54 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Congratulations. You have admitted that the treaty is what you said it wasn't thereby contradicting yourself.


Nope. I have yet to make a single post about what is in the proposed treaty.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:55 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
So let me get this straight then oralloy.
A flash suppressor has no purpose at all?
So when the government puts it on military weapons it is paying for
something that is merely cosmetic. Shouldn't we eliminate it
then since it is nothing but a give away to the gun manufacturer?
A flash suppressor makes the weapon SAFER
for the gunner who is using it by concealing his muzzle flash
so as not to reveal his position to the enemy,
who might not have the gunner 's best interests at heart.

Thay r also better for use at night,
so as not to interfere with the gunner 's night vision.





David
0 Replies
 
Atom Blitzer
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 11:58 am
@oralloy,
Well I'll be glad to point out the lethality if you want.
Give an idiot a M16A1, and another a M4A3. Both are equally crazy and amateur with their guns and they are in a crowded place. Both are given a set amount of time, but with endless ammo.
Spray and pray will get more innocent civilians killed or injured in the given amount of time.

oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 12:07 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
So tell us then David. Why am I not allowed to own an automatic weapon without a Federal license?


Only a few states require someone to have a federal license before they own a full-auto weapon.

Your premise is logically unsound. You are using the fact of a law's existence as if that were evidence that the law does not violate the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 12:12 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
So let me get this straight then oralloy.
A flash suppressor has no purpose at all?


Not exactly. It does something. It's just that that something doesn't make the gun more lethal.

And much more importantly, the government has no legitimate reason to ban flash suppressors.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 12:25 pm
@Atom Blitzer,
Atom Blitzer wrote:
Well I'll be glad to point out the lethality if you want.
Give an idiot a M16A1, and another a M4A3. Both are equally crazy and amateur with their guns and they are in a crowded place. Both are given a set amount of time, but with endless ammo.
Spray and pray will get more innocent civilians killed or injured in the given amount of time.


It is unlikely that spray and pray would kill more people.

However that is beside the point, as "whether a gun has harmless cosmetic features like a pistol grip" has nothing to do with "whether someone engages in spray and pray".
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 12:31 pm
Quote:
The New York Times
July 25, 2012
I Carried a Gun, and It Was Heavy
By MICHAEL A. BLACK

Chicago -AS the families of James E. Holmes’s victims continue to deal with this senseless tragedy, anti- and pro-gun groups are exchanging their standard barbs on gun control in America. Representative Louie Gohmert, Republican of Texas, recently suggested that if this incident had occurred in his state, where many citizens carry concealed weapons, the crazed shooter could have been quickly terminated. I wonder if the congressman considered the confusion and terror that occurs in a real-life firefight?

I spent over 30 years as a police officer in the Chicago area, and I was required to carry a weapon both on and off duty. A few years after 9/11, laws were extended to allow officers to carry their weapons across state lines and retired officers to continue to be armed, the logic being that those men and women had been screened and trained and knew when and how to use their weapons in emergencies. Excluding our brave military personnel, police officers are probably the only individuals who rush toward the sound of gunfire.

I’ve faced people with guns many times and arrested violent, armed offenders for such crimes as robbery and homicide. Although my gun often left its holster on those occasions, I am grateful that I never had to shoot anyone. I never lost sight of the responsibility of carrying a weapon. Despite what many people think, it’s not something to be taken lightly.

Illinois is the only state that does not allow ordinary citizens to carry concealed firearms. A few years back, I was visiting my father at the laundromat where he worked, when one of the regulars, who knew I was a cop, asked if I was “strapped.” When I said yes, he complained that he should have the right to carry a gun, too, since he was “a law-abiding citizen.” I’d heard this knucklehead spout off about minorities on numerous occasions and didn’t think he was a good candidate to be packing a weapon in public, though in many states, he could have been. The Trayvon Martin case shows the consequences of an untrained person with a gun. Police officers must go through psychological screening and a lot of training before they’re allowed to carry a weapon, and even then problems sometimes arise.

I once told a rookie that you never forget the first gun you take off the street. Mine was taken from a guy named Homer in 1978. It was close to midnight, and we got a call reporting two men trying to break into an apartment building. I pulled up and caught the guys — Homer and a friend — at the doors. It turned out that the caller was an ex-girlfriend of Homer’s who lived in the building and had made it clear that he was not welcome. Homer had a record — and a .22-caliber handgun in his pocket.

A month later, he saw me outside the courtroom and cordially waved. “It ain’t nothing but a misdemeanor,” he said, which at that time was true. “I’m just gonna plead it out and get rid of it.” And that’s what he did.

The last shooting incident I was involved in happened at 3 in the morning on Dec. 26, 2010, my last Christmas before I retired. We responded to a report of two men arguing, one threatening to shoot the other. My radio blared, “Shots fired! Man with a gun.” When I reached one man, running in the darkness between two houses, he had already been shot by another officer. When the officer had ordered the man to stop and identify himself, the man had pointed a pistol at him. The officer ducked behind his car door and fired half the bullets in his Glock 21 before finally hitting the offender once in the left buttock. We eventually found the shooter’s silver semiautomatic deep in a snowdrift.

The suddenness and confusion of that moment points out the folly of the politician’s belief that an armed civilian could have easily taken out James Holmes. Imagine the scene: speakers blasting, larger-than-life heroes and villains on the screen, and suddenly real gunshots, a man in a gas mask firing one of three weapons — a shotgun, handgun and rifle, with extended magazines for extra ammo capacity — into the panicking crowd. Even a highly trained, armed police officer would have been caught off guard. Try adding a bunch of untrained, armed civilians into the mix — this type of intervention could have made things much worse.

Illinois is routinely called the “most repressive state” by gun rights groups. It requires everyone to obtain a firearm owner’s identification card before purchasing firearms and ammunition. This gives the police another tool to work with if an armed crook is caught without a card. It also creates a paper trail for repeated, in-state purchases. Perhaps if some kind of effective tracking safeguard had existed in Colorado, James Holmes’s purchases — all of which were legal — might have been flagged.

The pro- and anti-gun groups need to sit down and let common sense rule. We register automobiles and require proof of driving proficiency before granting driving licenses. Is it so unreasonable to consider a national or state-by-state registry for firearms? While I’m not totally opposed to concealed carry laws, why not require comprehensive background checks, psychological screening and training? And while it might be considered un-American to prevent an ordinary citizen from owning an assault rifle, would it be too much to ask why he needs to have a specially modified 100-round magazine?

As a former policeman, I know that such measures would help law enforcement do its job. As an American, I hope that they could help us head off the next tragedy of this type.


Michael A. Black, a retired police officer, is the author of “I Am Not a Cop,” with Richard Belzer, and the forthcoming book “Sacrificial Offerings.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/26/opinion/armed-but-not-so-safe.html?ref=opinion
Atom Blitzer
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 12:33 pm
@oralloy,
It's not assault weapons that is the problem, or the manufacturing of these weapons would be stopped. It is people. Normal people can snap, and allowing a fully automatic assault rifle in their hands is just not worth the risk.

For civilian purposes, a semi auto or "non-assault" rifle is more than enough for recreational activity and "protection."
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 12:38 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Illinois is the only state that does not allow ordinary citizens to carry concealed firearms.


Soon to change. The Supreme Court is within a couple years from ruling that all jurisdictions everywhere have to let people carry guns in public.

Granted, they might be able to require open carry (but only if they truly allow people to carry openly without being hassled).
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Jul, 2012 12:45 pm
@Atom Blitzer,
Quote:
fully automatic assault rifle in their hands is just not worth the risk.


LOL first the case we are addressing was not repeat not a fully automatic weapon seconds there are hundreds of thousands of people who have the licenses needed to own such weapons in the US and the last I check only one case of such a weapon being use for an illegal purpose.

Seems that the checks in order to legally own such class two weapons are working just fine and hundred of thousands of citizens can indeed be trusted to own such weapons

Now fully auto fired IE spray and pray is not normally a good combat method and the US army removed fully auto fire from their assault weapons going for three rounds busts.

0 Replies
 
 

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