37
   

Mass Shooting At Denver Batman Movie Premiere

 
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:14 pm
May I refer you to the recent news story about the guys trying to rob a convenience store. The owner's 86-year-old mother grabbed a handful of mangos and drove the robbers away by throwing them at them.; Tastes a hell of a lot better than trying to chew a bullet.
Krumple
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:20 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

He shot because he thought the guy was an intruder. Isn't that why you guys say you need guns, so you can kill intruders. David has above maintained that no one with a gun would ever shoot without being sure of his target, when I suggested mass carnage would ensue in a theater with everyone armed and no one sure who the shooter was. Clearly David might be just a teensy bit starry-eyed about people actually identifying the shooter and firing only at that person. Hey, David, isn't your stock answer in these situations that the person shot should have had a gun? Should the son have had a gun and killed his dad before his dad mis-identified him? You guys simply don't live in the real world.


But we must back up a bit. The question becomes, would the guy have even plotted to go into a theater knowing that there is a high chance that others would be armed? I think what people forget is the actual situation rather than the reality. If you knew that you were going to go into a crouded area where people were more than likely armed with the plan to shoot as many as you can, you would know that there is a high chance that someone might shoot back. This would be a deterent or it would press your plan to become more refined yet there is still a point in your mind that you could get shot.

The opposite is even worse. When a criminal knows that no one else in the area will be armed they don't worry about if they will be shot at. Especially worse if the government has outlawed carring. The criminal would then know that they are the only one carrying.

This is why it is better to arm all society and not unarm them. If a criminal knows the risks are higher because more people are carrying their plans will become more difficult to carry out espcially if they expect to survive their attack.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:24 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Strange that I had own firearms for four decades and somehow had not shot a family member or a friend


Yeah, that is strange. Tell Ridley's Believe it or not, it beats alien abduction hands down.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:28 pm
Krumple, sorry, there was some ambiguity there, mostly my fault. I was talking about the story about the cop who shot and killed his son whom he mistook for an intruder, not James Holmes. I was responding to, I think, oralloy. Too many intervening posts and no reference at the head of the post. Mea culpa.
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:30 pm
BillRM wrote:

Strange that I had own firearms for four decades and somehow had not shot a family member or a friend

I do have to agree with you that that is strange, Bill. Having read your posts it's hard to believe you haven't left a trail of carnage behind you on your journey thru life.

Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:31 pm
@MontereyJack,
it just might help explain how he passed English class, Jack...
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:35 pm
@dlowan,
Mass shootings are also more likely when assault weapons, equipped with high capacity clips are used. These weapons fire a lot of shots very quickly, which enables more people to be hit very rapidly.

An American Muslim Army psychiatrist, and radical Islamic sympathizer, opened fire on fellow sevice members at Fort Hood in Texas, and killed 13 and wounded 29 in 2009 He was not a nut--the shooting was a politically motivated act of terrorism.
Quote:
According to pretrial testimony, Hasan entered the Guns Galore store in Killeen on July 31, 2009, and purchased the FN Five-seven semi-automatic pistol that he was to use in the attack at Fort Hood. According to Army Specialist William Gilbert, a regular customer at the store, Hasan entered the store and abruptly asked for "the most technologically advanced weapon on the market and the one with the highest magazine capacity." asan was allegedly asked how he intended to use the weapon, but did not give a straight answer, insisting that he simply wanted the most advanced handgun with the largest magazine capacity. The three people with Hasan—Gilbert, the store manager, and an employee—all agreed upon the FN Five-seven pistol. Gilbert, who personally owned one of the pistols, spent nearly an hour describing it to Hasan, explaining that the gun was extremely lightweight and accurate, and telling him that the bullets it fires cause severe damage on impact.

When the conversation ended, Hasan left the store, saying he needed to research the weapon. He returned to purchase the gun the next day, and visited the store on a weekly basis to buy extra magazines, along with hundreds of rounds of 5.7×28mm SS192 and SS197SR ammunition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting


It is the rapid fire weapons with high capacity clips that facillitate mass shootings.

And these mass shootings are not that uncommon here--we have them in workplaces, schools, college campuses, churches, etc., the one 3 days before the movie theater shooting took place outside a bar.

This one took place in a mall
Quote:
The Westroads Mall shooting was a murder-suicide that occurred on Wednesday, December 5, 2007, at the Von Maur department store in the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Nebraska, United States. Nineteen-year-old Robert A. Hawkins killed nine people (including himself) and wounded four, two of them critically.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westroads_Mall_shooting


The weapon involved? A Century WASR-10 (a commercial copy of the AKM 7.62x39mm) semi-automatic rifle with two 30-round magazines that were taped together.

And last year, a congresswoman was shot, along with 18 other people, and six died, when the shooter opened fire with his 9mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.

The one consistent feature in these mass shootings is a rapid fire semi-automatic weapon with a high capacity magazine. It's the weapon of choice when you want to shoot as many people as possible as fast as possible.

And, in most parts of the U.S., these weapons are easily, and legally, obtainable. So, no need to search hard for why we have mass shootings--we have the weapons available to facillitate those acts.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:38 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
He shot because he thought the guy was an intruder. Isn't that why you guys say you need guns, so you can kill intruders.


What's this "need" nonsense again?

We're not serfs. If we choose to have guns and go about armed, we are free to do so, and we do not have to come up with any reason whatsoever to justify it.



MontereyJack wrote:
David has above maintained that no one with a gun would ever shoot without being sure of his target,


That would be the proper course for a responsible gun owner to take.



MontereyJack wrote:
You guys simply don't live in the real world.


In the real world, both the NRA and the US Supreme Court will prevent you from violating our civil rights.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:47 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

Krumple, sorry, there was some ambiguity there, mostly my fault. I was talking about the story about the cop who shot and killed his son whom he mistook for an intruder, not James Holmes. I was responding to, I think, oralloy. Too many intervening posts and no reference at the head of the post. Mea culpa.


ahh alright but I think people need to develop a military strategy for situations like this so family members don't shoot each other.

For example it is late and your child grabs a gun that they are trained how to use to protect the property. If you teach them a code word like they do for soldiers then this sitation might not have ended trageticly. All he needs to do is yell the code word and the father give the correct response. If the correct response does not come then you know that the person is an actual intruder.

This now makes it safer for family members to trust and know they are safe among themselves when there are firearms available. Rather than make claims that firearms are just too dangerous for familys and thus take them away.

Long story short, more training is needed and better ways to handle situations.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 06:50 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Mass shootings are also more likely when assault weapons, equipped with high capacity clips are used.


Balderdash. The harmless cosmetic features that characterize assault weapons make no difference whatsoever.



firefly wrote:
These weapons fire a lot of shots very quickly, which enables more people to be hit very rapidly.


No more quickly than a non-assault-weapon with the same clip.



Quote:
According to pretrial testimony, Hasan entered the Guns Galore store in Killeen on July 31, 2009, and purchased the FN Five-seven semi-automatic pistol that he was to use in the attack at Fort Hood. According to Army Specialist William Gilbert, a regular customer at the store, Hasan entered the store and abruptly asked for "the most technologically advanced weapon on the market and the one with the highest magazine capacity." asan was allegedly asked how he intended to use the weapon, but did not give a straight answer, insisting that he simply wanted the most advanced handgun with the largest magazine capacity. The three people with Hasan—Gilbert, the store manager, and an employee—all agreed upon the FN Five-seven pistol. Gilbert, who personally owned one of the pistols, spent nearly an hour describing it to Hasan, explaining that the gun was extremely lightweight and accurate, and telling him that the bullets it fires cause severe damage on impact.

When the conversation ended, Hasan left the store, saying he needed to research the weapon. He returned to purchase the gun the next day, and visited the store on a weekly basis to buy extra magazines, along with hundreds of rounds of 5.7×28mm SS192 and SS197SR ammunition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting


Interesting that you are citing the use of a non-assault-weapon here.



firefly wrote:
It is the rapid fire weapons with high capacity clips that facilitate mass shootings.


Perhaps. Perhaps not.

But that has nothing to do with assault weapons.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 09:23 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
The question becomes, would the guy have even plotted to go into a theater knowing that there is a high chance that others would be armed?

Sure. That's why he wore the body armor.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 09:37 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

hawkeye10 wrote:
Another example is in listening to the EU leaders talk about how they are going to save the EU......sure their plans will require most/all the nations to change their constitutions so that the nations can be depowered and the EU powered up, no problem. They have complete faith in their ability to talk you chumps into what ever they want to do.


You're the one who still doesn't get it. This chump is British, we're not changing our constitutions at all,
if anything we're taking powers back.
For that, I earnestly CONGRATULATE U, Izzy.
Government is a dangerous thing. The less of it there is, the better.





David

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 09:56 pm

I 'm an optimist, by nature.
I hope that something good will come of all this, to wit:
that people will become more consciously aware of the need
for greater personal safety in always being well armed in public,
in keeping with earlier American traditions.

Wives and mothers shud always be active in reminding
all their relatives to make sure that thay have their personal guns
on them, nice and clean, every time that thay venture out in public.

Before u leave your respective homes,
always check to make sure that u have all your keys,
your cash, your credit cards, and your defensive guns.





David

P.S.:
Additionally, don 't forget to work out with your guns, for proficiency.
Get used to them, their functioning & their recoil; get to know them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 10:02 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
ahh alright but I think people need to develop a military strategy for situations like this so family members don't shoot each other.

For example it is late and your child grabs a gun that they are trained how to use to protect the property. If you teach them a code word like they do for soldiers then this sitation might not have ended trageticly. All he needs to do is yell the code word and the father give the correct response. If the correct response does not come then you know that the person is an actual intruder.

This now makes it safer for family members to trust and know they are safe among themselves when there are firearms available. Rather than make claims that firearms are just too dangerous for familys and thus take them away.

Long story short, more training is needed and better ways to handle situations.


Such codewords sound wise. Maybe even for families without guns.

But (Texas aside) self defense is not about blasting an intruder without warning.

It is about blasting someone who is in the process of trying to kill or seriously injure you.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 10:14 pm
@oralloy,
Krumple wrote:
ahh alright but I think people need to develop a military strategy for situations like this so family members don't shoot each other.

For example it is late and your child grabs a gun that they are trained how to use to protect the property. If you teach them a code word like they do for soldiers then this sitation might not have ended trageticly. All he needs to do is yell the code word and the father give the correct response. If the correct response does not come then you know that the person is an actual intruder.

This now makes it safer for family members to trust and know they are safe among themselves when there are firearms available. Rather than make claims that firearms are just too dangerous for familys and thus take them away.

Long story short, more training is needed and better ways to handle situations.
oralloy wrote:
Such codewords sound wise. Maybe even for families without guns.

But (Texas aside) self defense is not about blasting an intruder without warning.



It is about blasting someone who is in the process of trying to
kill or seriously injure you.
How to handle that is a very serious personal choice,
upon which your life can possibly depend.

My own taste is just to chase him away,
after he has surrendered. Obviously, that is not good for the nabors.

I might add that it is very unwise
to engage an intruder with gunfire at any significant distance;
danger of collateral injuries, unless he is at point blank range, right in front of u.





David
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 10:22 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Such codewords sound wise. Maybe even for families without guns.

But (Texas aside) self defense is not about blasting an intruder without warning.

It is about blasting someone who is in the process of trying to kill or seriously injure you.


I think we could even go further with this. You could develope two sets of code words. For example if we were to start training families who have guns to use this code word method there might come a time when a family member is used against their will to provide the code word to their captor.

To prevent this from happening we develop a fake code word that is actually useful to the other family members. Such as a code word that means that I am being held hostage and was asked to give the code word for safe entry. This new code word would alert the other family members as to what is happening. This is so your own code words could never be used against you in any situation.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  6  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 10:45 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
May I refer you to the recent news story about the guys trying to rob a convenience store. The owner's 86-year-old mother grabbed a handful of mangos and drove the robbers away by throwing them at them.; Tastes a hell of a lot better than trying to chew a bullet.

There you go. Just remember to carry fresh fruit into the theater. Maybe a bunch of kiwis.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 10:56 pm
@oralloy,
aidan wrote:
Maybe we should ask Ashley Moser if she feels your freedom is worth the price she's paying, now that her six year old daughter has been murdered and she's lying (still not aware yet that her daughter is dead) drifting in and out of consciousness with bullets lodged in her throat and chest.
oralloy wrote:
Did they let her poor ex-husband in the hospital yet?
Or are they still keeping him out "because he said he hoped
someone would kill the shooter in prison"?
(He wasn't even near the hospital when he said it.)



aidan wrote:
Listen Oralloy - I am American. But I feel much more free here in England. I can walk the streets, go shopping and to the post office, walk alone anywhere I want all over the country without having to worry about me or one of my family members or friends being accosted or killed by someone with a gun to go along with their grudge or delusion.
oralloy wrote:
You have no way of knowing if the people you cross paths with in the UK are armed.
You are just denied the freedom to choose to be armed yourself.

You are also confusing freedom with (imagined) security.
That 's ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!
Where was it that Jack the Ripper used to hang around?? How many guns did he use??

I am an American too, Rebecca.
I never fear crime, no matter where I am going in America.
To be more precise: I fear more getting lost along the road,
but it never enters my mind that I am going to be involved
in a violent crime (not even when someone actually shot at me).

However, I have never had much interest
in going to places that r especially dangerous.





David
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 11:00 pm
@joefromchicago,
Good point.

Now, that sounds kind of conspicuous, but not much more so that the shotgun and AR-15 I think I heard mentioned. Doesn't anybody notice these little details?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jul, 2012 11:01 pm
@Ticomaya,
MontereyJack wrote:
May I refer you to the recent news story about the guys trying to rob a convenience store. The owner's 86-year-old mother grabbed a handful of mangos and drove the robbers away by throwing them at them.; Tastes a hell of a lot better than trying to chew a bullet.
Ticomaya wrote:
There you go. Just remember to carry fresh fruit into the theater.
Maybe a bunch of kiwis.
Yeah, is Rudy Vallée singing there ?

( " O, give me something to remember u by " )





David
0 Replies
 
 

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