7
   

Electric cars, a fad and its own demise?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 12:40 am
@gungasnake,
Its avery new model. It has no record of perormance or reliability. Methinks you are in cahoots with your friend. I think Ill wait for some long term test data or at least some mid year review by Road and Track. Lets talk in another year or two, then you can wax on (wax off)
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 01:08 am
@farmerman,
The reliability of the multiair engine is the big iffy. The technology has only been in production for two years. I get worried when complex new technology is used to force more work out of old products, in this case an old engine block.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 03:16 am
@hawkeye10,
The idea was apparently patented in 02 and first sold in cars in 08 or 09.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Alfa_Romeo_MiTo_1.4_TB_front.JPG/250px-Alfa_Romeo_MiTo_1.4_TB_front.JPG

The AlfaRomeo MiTo
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 04:22 am
@gungasnake,
REVIEW of the Mito, recognizes and celebrates the"Well known the world around" fact of the un=reliability of Alfas



Quote:







CNET UK
Reviews
Car Tech
Cars


Alfa Romeo MiTo review




Reviewed by Rory Reid on 26 July 2010





























Verdict


The MiTo leaves most other superminis in its dust. It's infinitely more desirable than established vehicles in its class -- including the highly rated Mini.


Typical price

£11,935
Search for latest Alfa Romeo M





Good
Great fun to drive
Blue&Me entertainment system


Bad
Lacks steering feedback
Harsh ride




In this review
1.The Good
2.The Bad
3.The Tech
4.The Cost
5. The Verdict

Remember the Alfa Romeo 8C supercar? We've just spent a week testing its little brother, a cute supermini called the MiTo. How can a supermini be related to a supercar, you ask? According to Alfa, it's all about having the right DNA. We have no idea what that means. But is it fast enough to terrify passengers? Does it have tech befitting a £170,000 motor? Let's sort this out.




The Good

The 8C is a stunning car, so it's no surprise the MiTo borrows a few of its party tricks. Everything from the bulbous snout to the teardrop-shaped windows to the concentric LED lights at the rear, has been lifted, in some shape or form, from the 8C. The slightly squashed front end has a rather sad expression, as if it knows it's the runt of a pedigree litter, but overall, we think it looks gorgeous -- expect plenty of admiring glances from pedestrians and fellow drivers.




The MiTo offers three driving modes, selectable via a 'DNA' (dynamic, normal and all-weather) switch -- aha! -- by the gear stick. The all-weather mode gives you extra grip in icy or wet conditions, the default mode gives you super-light steering and a generally easy ride, while the third, dynamic mode, transforms the car completely. It revs more eagerly, pulls harder and, despite only having a 1.4-litre turbocharged engine, does 0-60mph in a brisk 8 seconds.

An overboost feature, available only in dynamic mode, gives you an extra kick of turbo power under heavy acceleration. This facilitates overtaking, and is accompanied by Gran Turismo-style graphics on the instrument panel showing you what level of boost you're using. Tres cool.




Handling is generally very good. The ride is harsher than we'd like, and the steering could provide a touch more feedback to warn us when the front wheels are about to lose grip during cornering, but these are quibbles we can live with.



The Bad

Alfa Romeos have a reputation of breaking down, falling apart and generally doing things that aren't conducive to stress-free motoring.
The only sign of trouble on our test car was the passenger airbag warning light refusing to turn off, but that didn't bother us -- we didn't plan on crashing, and even if we did, we'd be in the driving seat, where the airbag works just fine.

It is slightly worrying, however, that the first 18 pages of the MiTo's user manual are dedicated to things that might go wrong. Either Alfa Romeo is taking reliability very seriously, or it expects you to make use of those 18 pages on a regular basis.

The Tech

The MiTo has a wealth of switches, dials and buttons, the most interesting of which is a Microsoft Windows Start button located on the steering wheel. This activates the Blue&Me information and entertainment system, co-developed by Microsoft and Fiat, Alfa Romeo's parent company. It allows playback of digital music via the car's USB port as well as hands-free use of mobile phones that have been paired via Bluetooth -- all via voice control.



The media player is exceptionally easy to use – simply connect a USB mass-storage device, an iPod filled with unprotected MP3 or WMA files, and the MiTo plays those files over the car's speakers, while displaying track information on the dashboard's central display. Dialling a contact in your phone book is achieved by pressing Start, saying the word 'dial' aloud, followed by the name of the contact. Text-to-speech technology means SMS text messages can be read aloud over the car's speakers at the driver's request. To see the system in action on the Fiat 500, click here.


One other feature we were particularly keen on was Hill Hold. This system detects when the car is stopped on a hill with an incline of 5 per cent or more, and applies the brakes to prevent you rolling backwards into parked traffic. The brakes are only applied for approximately 1 second, but in practice that's long enough to move your foot from the brake to the accelerator pedal, find your clutch's biting point, and pull away.

The MiTo has several optional technologies, including heated windscreens, an alcohol test kit, satellite navigation and a Bose hi-fi with eight speakers, a subwoofer and digital amplifier. The latter was unavailable on our test car, but we imagine it's better than the rubbish Blaupunkt radio that comes as standard.




The Cost

The MiTo comes in three trim levels. The entry-level Turismo retails for £10,995, our 155bhp Lusso costs £14,045, while the top of the range Veloce will set you back £14,995. Emissions on the entry-level car are mediocre at 138g/km, but the combined fuel economy of 43.5mpg is pretty respectable.



The Verdict

The MiTo may forever live in the shadow of the 8C, but it leaves most other superminis in its dust. It's infinitely more desirable than established vehicles in its class -- including the highly rated Mini. It's also relatively affordable -- just over £10k is a pretty reasonable cost of entry into the Alfa Romeo owners' club. Get one if you can
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 10:50 am
@farmerman,
Whoever wrote that is full of **** and so are you.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 10:55 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Whoever wrote that is full of **** and so are you.



so you don't recommend the vehicle as the reviewer does?


Quote:
Get one if you can
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 11:01 am
@gungasnake,
Personal taste I guess.
I like Japanese engineering. I have a 2009 modified Subaru Impreza WRX Sti. And it handles beautiful and has more hp than I can handle. I'd like to take that baby for rally racing some day, once I'm rich enough to fully disclose to my insurance company about it, and I can afford to pay the higher rate.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 11:04 am
@aspvenom,
you dont drive rally cars for everyday use.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 11:07 am
@ehBeth,
gunga skims over everything. he was pissed that
i highlighted alfas reputation for self destruction. MAYBE, just maybe, All these guys learnt from Chrysler, since the Abarth US is assembled as a machiadoros
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jul, 2012 11:09 am
@farmerman,
So I should add, once I have enough money to also buy another car to drive for every day use. Laughing
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2012 09:57 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
...gunga skims over everything. he was pissed that
i highlighted alfas reputation for self destruction....


I say again, you and your source are both full of ****, the Alfa never had any reputation for self destruction. Alfa were being sold in the US up to the mid 70s if memory serves at which time most European makes left the US market due to the cost of EPA regs and the Japanese dumping cars here. Nothing lived for 200K miles in those days without engine rebuilds and there were several reasons for that including computer controlled machinery not being there, the kinds of bearings we have now not being there, synthetic oil not being there, and squirrels driving some of the cars.

Fiats and Lancias were considered cheap imitations of the Alfa at the time and you'd have paid as much for a Lancia as for an Alfa. Alfa was considered the equal of Mercedes or porsche in quality at the time and was more fun to drive.

Horst Kwech and Monty Winkler would not have been racing Alfa Romeos if they thought the Alfa was an inferior car and they certainly would not have been winning SCCA titles with Alfas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Kwech

Quote:
Kwech’s racing success in 1965 came to the attention of Alfa Romeo’s head of USA racing, and Knauz Motors was offered a chance to purchase an Autodelta-prepared GTA to campaign in the newly established SCCA Trans-Am Series, with Kwech as the lead driver. In 1966 the privateer team of Horst Kwech and Gaston Andrey was the most successful in the Trans-Am, accumulating 39 of the 57 manufacturers' points for Alfa Romeo and clinching Alfa’s Under 2 Liter Trans-Am Manufacturers' Championship.[1] Horst Kwech and Gaston Andrey also scored more points than any other drivers. Horst used the same GTA to qualify for the 1966 SCCA ARRC runoffs at Riverside. He went on to win the first ARRC B-Sedan National Championship in a famous race with 25 lead changes, against the Lotus Cortina of another young Aussie (but Canadian born) Allan Moffat, and was presented with the SCCA President's Cup for his outstanding drive.

In 1967 Kwech formed Ausca with Ron Neal and Bill Knauz in Libertyville, Illinois. This company developed Alfa Romeo performance parts and prepared and raced Alfas in various series. In that year, he prepared and raced the Tri-Color Alfa GTA’s with Monty Winkler, and Alfa Romeo gained second place in the 1967 Under 2 Liter Trans-Am Series.

In 1968 he raced for Shelby and won the Riverside Trans-Am race in a Shelby-prepared Mustang. This was one of three wins for the Shelby team in Trans-Am in 1968.

Kwech competed in the Under 2 liter Trans-Am Championship again in 1970, in an Alfa Romeo GTA.[2] In 1971, he ran an Alfa Romeo GTV against a strong Datsun team led by John Morton in a BRE Datsun 510....


Of all the cars anybody I knew at the time ever owned, the 57 Alfa Spider was the neatest:

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQN7NkdzvZTyc6QWlGM0-uJE9g4kmJZV6QUJ8Vv8RiRN6uqTyE-

Academic dead wood wouldn't have been able to afford it at the time, but I'm not aware of it having any other problems.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2012 10:41 am
@gungasnake,
What SCCA road races had in common with every day driving experiences is limited to the badge on the cars. I used to be a member of a hill climb team and we raced several cars, incuding an Alfa Giulietta. It, and the Fiat Spyser, and my MGC , were some of the biggest POS's ever. Heres a little review from the UK "Top Gear" show. They are brutally honest nd accurate about their car reviews and silly road tests

Quote:
Can you buy an Alfa Romeo for £1000 or less without it completely ruining your life all the time challenge





The presenters' Alfas when the challenge ended. From left to right, Hammond's Spider, Clarkson's 75 and May's GTV.
The presenters were challenged with proving to the show's producers that in order to be a true "petrolhead," you need to have owned an Alfa Romeo. So, they were each given £1,000 to buy an Alfa Romeo. Clarkson bought an Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 (for £450), Hammond bought an Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 (for £1,000), and May bought an Alfa Romeo GTV 2.0 TwinSpark (for £995). The cars were put to a series of tests, which included participating in a track day at Rockingham Circuit, featuring their cars on a calendar which they must sell at a newsstand, and then lastly entering a Concours event for Alfas, traveling as far as 50 miles to get to the event area.

At the race circuit, the presenters were to gain a point for every car they overtook and lose a point each time they were overtaken. Optimistic about their chances on the track, the presenters were distraught to find out that their opponents were driving high-end sports cars and supercars. The challenge began "descending into a farce" as the crew were consistently overtaken dozens of times per lap. Alfa Romeo's reputation for poor reliability was reinforced as each car constantly broke down and fell apart. Jeremy's Alfa 75 was the least reliable of all the cars. Its flywheel bearings broke within minutes on the track, it quickly lost power steering, the seats collapsed, the exhaust fell off the car, and his brakes suffered severe fade. James' clutch barely worked in the first place and failed numerous times throughout the day. Hammond's Spider ran on three cylinders for the longest time before his water pump shattered, rendering his car useless. In the end, with both the Spider and the GTV out of commission, Clarkson attempted to overtake a Ford Focus (successfully) and careened off the course, landing on its side
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2012 10:42 am
@gungasnake,
What SCCA road races had in common with every day driving experiences is limited to the badge on the cars. I used to be a member of a hill climb team and we raced several cars, incuding an Alfa Giulietta. It, and the Fiat Spyser, and my MGC , were some of the biggest POS's ever. Heres a little review from the UK "Top Gear" show. They are brutally honest nd accurate about their car reviews and silly road tests

Quote:
Can you buy an Alfa Romeo for £1000 or less without it completely ruining your life all the time challenge





The presenters' Alfas when the challenge ended. From left to right, Hammond's Spider, Clarkson's 75 and May's GTV.
The presenters were challenged with proving to the show's producers that in order to be a true "petrolhead," you need to have owned an Alfa Romeo. So, they were each given £1,000 to buy an Alfa Romeo. Clarkson bought an Alfa Romeo 75 3.0 V6 (for £450), Hammond bought an Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 (for £1,000), and May bought an Alfa Romeo GTV 2.0 TwinSpark (for £995). The cars were put to a series of tests, which included participating in a track day at Rockingham Circuit, featuring their cars on a calendar which they must sell at a newsstand, and then lastly entering a Concours event for Alfas, traveling as far as 50 miles to get to the event area.

At the race circuit, the presenters were to gain a point for every car they overtook and lose a point each time they were overtaken. Optimistic about their chances on the track, the presenters were distraught to find out that their opponents were driving high-end sports cars and supercars. The challenge began "descending into a farce" as the crew were consistently overtaken dozens of times per lap. Alfa Romeo's reputation for poor reliability was reinforced as each car constantly broke down and fell apart. Jeremy's Alfa 75 was the least reliable of all the cars. Its flywheel bearings broke within minutes on the track, it quickly lost power steering, the seats collapsed, the exhaust fell off the car, and his brakes suffered severe fade. James' clutch barely worked in the first place and failed numerous times throughout the day. Hammond's Spider ran on three cylinders for the longest time before his water pump shattered, rendering his car useless. In the end, with both the Spider and the GTV out of commission, Clarkson attempted to overtake a Ford Focus (successfully) and careened off the course, landing on its side
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2012 10:46 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:

Academic dead wood wouldn't have been able to afford it at the time, but I'm not aware of it having any other problems.

Then you are as thick as pudding. Alfa and Rover drivers have one big thing in common,both are liars about their respective vehicles.

SOmebody stole my Alfa Romeo :
"do you wanna follow the oil leak or just take the insurance settlement and buy a real car"\

Quote:
Alfa was considered the equal of Mercedes or porsche in quality at the time and was more fun to drive.
You have had limited experience with these cars havent you. An old Porsche RSK would mop the street with any Alfa of the day >AND it was a hoot to drive. Its gearbox was firm and sure, unlike the swizzly stick of the alfa.

Course, I have only driven pickups in the last 15 years or so. MAybe ALfa is getting better,But they sure needed a long way to go to make it into the new millenium
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jul, 2012 10:54 am
@farmerman,
As I said, academic dead wood couldn't have afforded it.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHax5Dutlm8FHaCwhW11tCzIhlyVYi6wC2NDPMCnx9myFzOseq8w
0 Replies
 
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jul, 2012 10:38 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
However, these are NOT available now. So its the"If I had bacon, I could make you bacon and eggs,if I had eggs" rationale.


Considering it seriously, I don't think the oil companies will allow this to happen easily. Rebuilding a multitrillion-dollar transportation and energy grid based largely on fossil fuels in America that took more than a century to create, would piss off the big oil corps. They won't go down with a fight.

What is possible is show the incentives and disincentives for certain energy options, and grow the public awareness of the indirect costs of the status quo.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2012 09:32 am
@aspvenom,
...what if instead of recharging battery's users only had to change battery's on stations with a universal format in use ? A special design in battery placement in cars and some automatic lifting would do the job in seconds...I reason that would work quite well...the only problem I see in the short term is as mentioned the lack of power in the greed and the possibility of blackouts being more frequent...

P.S. - (...the cost of battery's replacement, they are expensive indeed, once very 2 years or so, would be diluted in the billing for the electric charge in a very smooth process...so no problems with battery cost...)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2012 03:43 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I have a Ford Escape hybrid tht we bought s a tooling round and business car for me (Its really good AWD so I cn drive it deep into the mounains and mines for work projct).
Thebattery is deeply within the cars superstructure so Itd be a real pin to redesign the battery pack for a change out on the road. I dont think the investment for stand around spare batteries at service sttion in Death VAlley would pay anyone on the happenstance that some dude who had a battery drive wouldstop for tankup or a change out.

The battery on my hybrid is bout 17Kw (or mybe 7Kw) Im not certain which. The Escape ha a brake system recharger and was a pretty good thingy. I drove the car on battery for 40 muiles once (I was outta gas) and the car is really peppr because of the electric motor's torque.
The only reall problem Ive had with the damn thing was on the moonroof slide-out (That I had done s an aftermarket feature-hen I bought this lemony green car with a hybrid, it dodnt come ith a moon roof so we took it to this body shop that had a can opener guy who installed one.).

roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2012 04:09 pm
@farmerman,
I understand one of the Teslas has the battery box bolted to the underside. It's designed to stiffen the frame, and gives it a really low center of gravity. All in all, that one sounds like a winner.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jul, 2012 05:07 pm
@roger,
so, instead ofcharging or swapping out your battery, youd swap out the entire car. Is there something not well thought out in that plan?
 

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