7
   

Electric cars, a fad and its own demise?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 07:55 pm
@aspvenom,
i BH4 and (assocaitd Alkali Borohydride) IMHO, will remain a "Toy", much as calcium carbide (which produces ethane gas with water)
Production of Li Borohydride is
1 Its expensive to make, much moreso than simple thermal cracking of petroleum or the production of a complex ester(diesel uel) by a very simoe reaction with alcohols, bases and agitation (it also produces a usefuk by-product, glycerine)
2 Itwould require a HUUUGE changeover in infrastructure to car and truck manufacture and fuel delivery, manufacture AND storage (borohydrides and all metal hydrides need to be kept VERY dry so as not to take on explosive "water of hydration" reactions unexpectedlly. LiHB4 is many times more explosive than calcium carbide that we, as kids, used to blow up tin cans by the ethane reaction.
3 Borane, (a substance involved in a very complex module of prep
and storge for most hydrides) is quite toxic and we usually interact
this with a Titanium Oxide exchange column. (Much of my career has been in the development of many forms of Ti ores and preps)

LiBH4 is already a great neutron grabber for the nuke industry. I dont see its use in fuels beyond some interests in funding at Uni labs to produce chem e grad students.

Natural gas/propane/ and clean diesel make a lot more interim sense for a "bridge fuel" for the next 50 to 100 years.


Im a scientist too , but, Im an applied scientist whose terminal degree has been the melding of chemistry and mining geology. Ive been much " contaminated" by my engineering profession colleagues . Its taken a career to beat into my head that its often necessary to look at all the "life cycles" of the products and chemicals involved.

_______________________________________________________
Youre probably too young to recall the NUCEAR AIRPLANE. This actually got a lot of play time when I was a kid and I thought"What a neat idea" A nuclear reactor poering a plane or rocket. Then it sunk into our collective heads A NULEAR REACTOR IN THE SKY FLYING OVER A CITY NEAR YOU

I think there may be a lot more interest in production of exotic nuke fuels for "portble nuke generators" useable for safer nuke ships, safe reacors for urban and rural village uses in third world and in the developed world. Remember the Th reactors of the 80'ss? I think they have a place in the terror laced 21st century.
They dont produce fissionable material like a breeder reactor and are primarily gamma emitters and thye have a more reasonable half life to deal with .

Anyway, nuke reactions are waay more energy dense than gasoline or metal hydrides any day
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:23 pm
@farmerman,
Metal Hydride might not be a solution, then, possibly development in liquid hydrogen fuel technology.

It's just that I don't see the point of this investment of battery electric cars, pollution conscious wise. It isn't really that effective in combating smog and CO2 levels in the atmosphere, etc, from the automotive industry.

Yes, a nuclear fusion battery is a better solution to Hydrogen powered fuel cell. We'll have to wait some time though.

Ya, if there wasn't a nuclear arms race, thorium would have dominated, and eliminated this fear/ threat of potentially dangerous fissionable fuel materials getting into the hands of terrorists.
LFTR’s produce less waste that has lower radiotoxicity levels than the current standard nuclear reactor. And there is no sacrifice in the usable energy produced.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:23 pm
@farmerman,
I should say that a Th breeder reactor doesnt produce A LOT of bomb materail (it does produce about 10000 times less than an equivalent U235 reactor and produces only U 233 as the "Bomb material" this is much more difficlut to recover.
A Th reactor also, can use the Th "right from outta the grund" It doesnt need a cockamamy enrichment cycle to produce fissionable materail via a beneficiation process using a U Hexaflouride salt
aspvenom
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:25 pm
@farmerman,
Not only that, thorium is abundantly found, unlike the U-235 or Pu-239.

(Our government was stupid at that time to not invest in Thorium-232 reactors, a material that is fertile, but not fissile material)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:34 pm
@aspvenom,
well, thats just because the entire nuclear industry began as a weapons hunt.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:36 pm
@aspvenom,
Just a mind game but how could we, if we were so inclined, develop a metalhydride fueled economy with minimal impact to redesign the entire infrastructure?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:41 pm
Having been born in 1962 the word I most associate with "hydrogen" is "bomb".

Mystery solved!
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:45 pm
@aspvenom,
Quote:
It's just that I don't see the point of this investment of battery electric cars, pollution conscious wise. It isn't really that effective in combating smog and CO2 levels in the atmosphere, etc, from the automotive industry.


Then you pass the test....you are as smart as a fifth grader! Electric cars will gone down in history under the heading "government boondoggle" right under "corn based ethanol" Without public payments electric cars never would have hit the roads. They never should have hit the roads.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:57 pm
@aspvenom,
Electric cars may make it, IF anybody ever gets their act together with super capacitors; they'll never make it with batteries.

Meanwhile, given present realities, it appears if our best option for the next few decades at least is natural gas for powering vehicles.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 08:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkee doesnt understand the concept of "multidisciplenary research". The very technology that hes dumping all over is the same technology that has given us way long battery life for such things as power tools and cell phones. The potential of fuel cells in autos and trucks is the same tech that was developed for long distance space travel.

HAwkee lives a simple single dimensional life.

We will run out of natural gas and petroleum in a century or less, and if algae sourced diesel isnt a viable indutrial process for trucks trains and planes (not to forget tractors) ALLL these technologies for transportation will have a potential use. Hawkeye likes to have all his technology developed in the last minute.

Back in the 60's hawkee was asing "WE AINT EVER GONNA BE HAVIN FLAT SCREEN TV's"
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:00 pm
Anybody looking for some sort of a good little high mileage, simple car using today's tech might want to look at the new Fiat 500. From what I hear, it's well made and fun to drive and with a 5-speed gearbox and something like a 1400cc engine, it should get around 40 mpg.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:05 pm
@gungasnake,
FIAT ? Does it have that special Fiat "self destruct at 30000 miles" feature
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:07 pm
@farmerman,
They've owned Alfa Romeo for the last few decades now and it's hard to believe they wouldn't have learned anything from it. The Alfa was always my favorite car back in the 50s and 60s.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:09 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
We will run out of natural gas and petroleum in a century or less


Bullshit. Both petroleum and natgas are infinite resources and there is no such thing as a fossil fuel. The only rational reason to drop them will be better alternatives, cleaner, cheaper, and simpler, but nothing like that exists at present.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:10 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Many reviewers say it’s powerful enough for the 500 to scoot around town, but taking the underpowered hatchback on the highway is a different story. Traveling at highway speeds, the 2012 Fiat 500 is easily overwhelmed by potholes and cross winds

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/FIAT_500/

"NEXT!"
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:12 pm
http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm/11062/The-End-of-OPEC-Despotism

Quote:

The tectonic plates of Middle East politics are shifting fast. Egypt’s Arab spring may have run into the sand of anti-democratic Islamism, but the days when oil-rich Arab sheikhs colluded to hold Western economies to ransom will soon end. Massive shale oil and gas discoveries across the West, Israel’s rising status as a Middle East energy powerhouse and a deepening internal rift over strategic policy are all colluding to hasten OPEC’s demise.

In June, Kuwaiti oil minister Hani Hussein’s commented, “Oil from the Middle East will always find a home. And we have to see more research to get a better idea about the impact of shale oil development.” It’s a remark that sums up OPEC’s complacency in the face of the sheer scale of the global shale gas, and increasingly, shale oil revolution. Take the impact of OPEC’s exports to the United States. In 2011 20 percent of all OPEC exports went to the U.S. But America’s shale oil developments, particularly the development of the vast resource in the Green River Formation, could well as ConocoPhilips CEO Ryan Lance told OPEC in June, make North America, “self-sufficient in oil (as well as gas) by 2025”. It’s easy to see why. According to the United States Geological Survey (USGS), the Green River Formation in Colorado and Utah contains around 3 trillion (3,000 billion) barrels of oil, at least half of which will be recoverable. Given that the US consumes around 7 billion barrels a year ... well, you can do the math. Based on current industry production plans, energy consultants IHS CERA estimate that US unconventional oil production could rise from its current half a million barrels per day to 3 million barrels per day by 2020. As Daniel Yergin, chairman of IHS CERA, points out, that amounts to adding “another Venezuela or Kuwait by 2020”.

In the meanwhile, the Bakken shale formation in North Dakota and Montana continues to hold the spotlight for its role in the revival in US oil production. Between 2010 and 2011 production from the Bakken field doubled from 260 thousand barrels per day (bpd) to 445 thousand bpd. But as world class as the Bakken Formation shale yield is proving it is estimated that Russia’s Bazhenov Formation in Western Siberia is around 80 times larger still. Indeed the huge shale wealth – oil and gas – of Russia and China generally, neither of which are OPEC members, needs to be factored into the changing geopolitics affecting the Middle East’s energy production and its significance.

Then there are the shale developments threatening to turn Israel, the regular whipping boy for OPEC’s Arab leaders, into a truly global energy superpower. Israel’s recent major offshore discoveries of gas – amounting to a huge 30 trillion cubic feet – could well be matched by the discovery of equally huge shale oil resources in the Valley of Elah’s Shefla Basin (where David slew Goliath). The Basin could hold what one commentator described as the “mother lode of fossil fuels”. According to Israel Energy Initiatives (IEI), just one of the fields currently being drilled is estimated to hold around 500 million barrels of oil. That’s enough for Israel’s domestic purposes for five years. But IEI geologists maintain that Israel’s total shale deposits could produce as much as 250 billion barrels of crude. And that would catapult Israel into third place behind the US and China – and on a par with Saudi Arabia. And with an Islamist-dominated government threatening potential gas supplies from Egypt, Israel is not hanging around to see if its southern gas supplies are affected. At the end of June, Israeli and Canadian oil ministers signed a new energy deal. It will see Israel, with its reputation for technical innovation, aiding Canada’s oilsands development. Canada will reciprocate by providing Israel with its expertise in shale extraction.

And OPEC’s problems don’t end there.

The traditional Saudi dominance of OPEC is under threat as an emerging alliance of oil price ‘hawks’, including Iran, (and the increasingly Tehran-influenced) Iraq and Algeria oppose Saudi policies. While the Saudis insist on maintaining production of around 10 million barrels per day, their highest level in decades, Tehran wants to slow production and boost prices as sanctions over its nuclear developments bite. But while the differing priorities of the two factions augur a new internal power struggle, the new global energy realities are already having their impact whether OPEC members like to admit it or not.

Writing in the Financial Times about the impact of shale oil and gas across the West, US Treasury Deputy Secretary, Roger Altman, recently noted, “These discoveries will reduce price and supply volatility. They will also reset and profoundly improve international relations.” Possibly. But just as satisfyingly, Altman continues, “The days of OPEC, the oil producers’ cartel, are numbered. Unstable oil states, from Iraq to Venezuela, will be marginalized.”

The shale gale is blowing the winds of change through the global energy market. But it is also fast-eroding the ability of cartel run by the world’s leading despots where power is regularly used to hold the West and Israel to ransom.

That’s OPEC, by the way, and not (on this occasion) the United Nations.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Just telling you what I've heard from people who have driven the thing and clearly did not share your reviewer's opinion of it. There's a shot I may get to drive one of them tomorrow, if so I'll report back.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 09:20 pm
@aspvenom,
Quote:
But this is unlike Hollywood movies. A crash wouldn't cause a hydrogen tank to combust unless it is ignited.

And unlike Hollywood, gasoline won't combust unless it is ignited.

There are many ways for any system to leak. The hydrogen has to be delivered from the tank to the engine. The way to do that is most likely the underside of the car. That means hydrogen gas that leaks will rise up against the bottom of the car and most likely drift into the engine compartment. You do have to deliver the hydrogen into that compartment. Are there ways to try to minimize danger? Yes. Is it possible to eliminate it completely? No.

In the case of an auto accident with a tank filled with hydrogen, your tank and all connections would have to withstand some pretty strong forces and there is no way to eliminate combustion sources during such an accident.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 10:04 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Bullshit. Both petroleum and natgas are infinite resources
The only purveyor of bullshit is you. Your belief in a orldwide tropsh process machine is laughable. NAME ONE OIL OR GAS FIELD THAT IS NOT ASSOCIATED WITH A GEOLOGIC SOURCE, TRNSMISSION ROCK, AND A TRAP>

EVEN THE MARCELLUS SHALE has been known as a Devonian gas source rock due to the foraminiferan hydrocarbon source rocks. These
tropsch gys" are dreamers,and liars (a little of both) You are just not smart enough (or unread enough) to be able to distinguish whats vrap.Ill wait while yu go find some information about abiotic oil source rock
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2012 10:08 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
The Alfa was always my favorite car back in the 50s and 60s.
I have absolutely no problem believing that fact about you. I believe that(like range Rovers) Alfas were one of the cars able to leak an entire quart of oil in less than 100 miles after introduction
 

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