An actual atheist discussion

Re: Allow me to retort...

lolli wrote:

Frank,
I thought you said you were an easy-going guy?

But I am! :wink:

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Frank Apisa wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
You missed my point Frank. You seem anxious when a christian comes here and preaches thier beliefs. You feel the need to immediately jump them and preach how you lack knowledge of god and therefore they must as well and then end up calling their beliefs "crap". It's a game of one-up-manship is all it is. They come and say my god is cool, you say there is no god and a fight ensues. Nothing good comes from the debate. No one walks away saying "Huh! I never thought of that!". people just get mad and the insults start flying.

Thus ends Mcgentrix lecture #1231

I have never said there is no god.

And I honestly think you ought reserve your lectures for yourself.

But....if you want to entertain -- I'm here to be entertained.

I stand corrected. You have never said that and I should have put the extra effort in to have said you have no knowledge if God exists. As I did in the sentance prior to that grievous error.

We are equally entertained frank, by each other and by the other posters on A2K. I keep encouraging others to come and participate, but I guess they aren't as entertained by torture as I am... :wink:

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
I am envious of your journey c.i.

It should be wonderful!
I completely agree!

Every time I see your new avatar, I get a craving for a stogie. (Man, would I love to do one while playing Hold 'em.

But Nancy won't let me smoke cigars in the house -- and it's too cold to sit outside to do one.

Anyway...I had dinner with Joe Nation in New York on Wednesday -- (your name came up) -- and I managed to smoke two Churchills while walking around town.

It was heaven.

Keep on chompin'!

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McGentrix wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
You missed my point Frank. You seem anxious when a christian comes here and preaches thier beliefs. You feel the need to immediately jump them and preach how you lack knowledge of god and therefore they must as well and then end up calling their beliefs "crap". It's a game of one-up-manship is all it is. They come and say my god is cool, you say there is no god and a fight ensues. Nothing good comes from the debate. No one walks away saying "Huh! I never thought of that!". people just get mad and the insults start flying.

Thus ends Mcgentrix lecture #1231

I have never said there is no god.

And I honestly think you ought reserve your lectures for yourself.

But....if you want to entertain -- I'm here to be entertained.

I stand corrected. You have never said that and I should have put the extra effort in to have said you have no knowledge if God exists. As I did in the sentance prior to that grievous error.

We are equally entertained frank, by each other and by the other posters on A2K. I keep encouraging others to come and participate, but I guess they aren't as entertained by torture as I am... :wink:

Now that way funny, McG! :wink: :wink:

I think we gotta get together and tie one on!

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Hey, include me to "tie one on." Wink

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Welcome Jer.........nice to see you here with your clever words of wisdom.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.

People who "disbelieve" things are disguising the fact that they are "believing" something different from the thing they say they "disbelieve."

In other words, they are guessing in another direction.

Everything you say seems to be based on the supposition (which you seem to have confirmed yourself in as an infallible truth), that it's not possible to know whether or not God exists, because there is insufficent evidence to support either standpoint.

Well then, consider the hypothesis that God exists, which you acknowledge is a possibility. Would it not then be possible that he has the ability to reveal himself to his creatures by means unknown to you? Just because there might not be any public evidence known of God's existence, does it necessarily have to mean that there is no personal evidence? Has it ever occurred to you that people who claim, not only to know of God's existence, but actually to know God, might have received this insight from God himself?

That's a possibility which you can't dismiss based on your standpoint. Yet you constantly seem to dismiss these persons either as pretenders, liars, or as delusional. Or as with me, all three. Why?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Every time I see your new avatar, I get a craving for a stogie. (Man, would I love to do one while playing Hold 'em.

But Nancy won't let me smoke cigars in the house -- and it's too cold to sit outside to do one.

Anyway...I had dinner with Joe Nation in New York on Wednesday -- (your name came up) -- and I managed to smoke two Churchills while walking around town.

It was heaven.

Keep on chompin'!

LOL, I can only imagine what role I played in your conversation... Joe seems like a real cool guy, but we don't seem to meet eye to eye on much. By the way... just to rub it in a little; I think that was a Cohiba de Cuba!, mon. :wink:

Uh, oh... dude's made a pretty good point... I'll let you get back to work! :wink:

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Ceili,
It's okay, really! Just a little bit of sarcasm to go with your "thought-provoking" questions? I took a good long look at myself, like you said I should, and . . . you know what!!!! I look pretty damn good!!!
Thanks.

bye guys
find the truth Laughing

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Derevon wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.

People who "disbelieve" things are disguising the fact that they are "believing" something different from the thing they say they "disbelieve."

In other words, they are guessing in another direction.

Everything you say seems to be based on the supposition (which you seem to have confirmed yourself in as an infallible truth), that it's not possible to know whether or not God exists, because there is insufficent evidence to support either standpoint.

Well then, consider the hypothesis that God exists, which you acknowledge is a possibility. Would it not then be possible that he has the ability to reveal himself to his creatures by means unknown to you? Just because there might not be any public evidence known of God's existence, does it necessarily have to mean that there is no personal evidence? Has it ever occurred to you that people who claim, not only to know of God's existence, but actually to know God, might have received this insight from God himself?

That's a possibility which you can't dismiss based on your standpoint. Yet you constantly seem to dismiss these persons either as pretenders, liars, or as delusional. Or as with me, all three. Why?

The people who have been around for a while KNOW that I have never said it is "not possible to know if God exists."

In fact, in several threads, I have taken people to task for suggesting such a thing.

So everything you said here is based on a false premise on your part -- not mine.

If you want to discuss it, come at me.

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lolli wrote:

bye guys
find the truth

To quote a great line from Lightwizard...My truth is bigger than your truth! Nyah, Nyah!

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Mgentrix~ I think it's good that you were and are true to yourself instead of following what you've been taught or told growing up. Most people unfortunately don't think for themselves and would be surprised that God isn't just a guy up in the sky granting us wishes ya know? Alot of things are a misconception and our "man-made" religions do not help us out at all in that aspect. I encourage you (if you haven't already) to investigate the history of the church, religion, orthodoxy, and how the Bible came to be how it is today - it explains alot of how we've gotten to this point in the present, really interesting actually Wink

Anywayz, just wanted 2 say good for you !

~Kristin

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Frank Apisa wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I am envious of your journey c.i.

It should be wonderful!
I completely agree!

Every time I see your new avatar, I get a craving for a stogie. (Man, would I love to do one while playing Hold 'em.

But Nancy won't let me smoke cigars in the house -- and it's too cold to sit outside to do one.

Anyway...I had dinner with Joe Nation in New York on Wednesday -- (your name came up) -- and I managed to smoke two Churchills while walking around town.

It was heaven.

Keep on chompin'!

Sorry to get off topic, but we can get real Cuban's here at any tobacco shop. We don't have to break the law to do it. Smoked my first one last September, outside an Italian restaurant in Summer Hill where we'd stopped to have dinner on our way to a football semi-final. Had the best pizza I've ever had in my life, then finished the meal off with a nice Cuban cigar and drink. It was a good night.

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We were raised in the Mennonite church, in a small farming community where perhaps 50% of the folks held that same faith. It was, in my family's case particularly, a very liberal version of the faith, with high value placed on kindness, education, the arts, and community involvement. Which isn't to say that our church membership roster was completely without the odd money-grubbing car saleman type, or even a few too many of the teutonic/totalitarian Pat Robertson species. Overall, a fine place and situation in which to spend a childhood. I was thirteen when I presented my first class paper on Atheism. It didn't go over very well, I admit, but walking back to my desk, I did get some positive responses from Bruno and Max, future bank robbers.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Derevon wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.

People who "disbelieve" things are disguising the fact that they are "believing" something different from the thing they say they "disbelieve."

In other words, they are guessing in another direction.

Everything you say seems to be based on the supposition (which you seem to have confirmed yourself in as an infallible truth), that it's not possible to know whether or not God exists, because there is insufficent evidence to support either standpoint.

Well then, consider the hypothesis that God exists, which you acknowledge is a possibility. Would it not then be possible that he has the ability to reveal himself to his creatures by means unknown to you? Just because there might not be any public evidence known of God's existence, does it necessarily have to mean that there is no personal evidence? Has it ever occurred to you that people who claim, not only to know of God's existence, but actually to know God, might have received this insight from God himself?

That's a possibility which you can't dismiss based on your standpoint. Yet you constantly seem to dismiss these persons either as pretenders, liars, or as delusional. Or as with me, all three. Why?

The people who have been around for a while KNOW that I have never said it is "not possible to know if God exists."

In fact, in several threads, I have taken people to task for suggesting such a thing.

So everything you said here is based on a false premise on your part -- not mine.

If you want to discuss it, come at me.

Although you may not explicitly have stated that it is "not possible to know if God exists", but only that a person who claims that he doesn't know if God exists or not, is right, and that a person who believes either way, may be right, it should be obvious to anyone who've read your posts that you don't believe that any person can know whether or not God exists. Why else would you be calling them liars, pretenders and delusional? You just claimed people are guessing about God! Unless your claim is simply a guess grabbed out of thin air, I don't see what you possibly could have based such a statement on, if not on your own beliefs.

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Very interesting topic McG.

I was brought up in a fanatical fundamentalist family in which everything was considered to be literally true (and that wasn't just the Bible). These literal "truths" were used both in my family and in my church to coercively indoctrinate children regarding the origin of the universe and the existence of a creator.

I remember being called from my vacation bible school class in which I was creating some paper mache object to sit in the back of the church sanctuary. I was told by a spinsterly type older woman about how Jesus had died for my sins and if I'd bow my head and ask Jesus into my heart, I'd be saved from Hell for eternity. I felt embarrassed and decided that the only way out of this situation was to bow my head and ask Jesus into my heart so I could go back to my paper mache. So that's exactly what I did.

But I can't remember ever believing the story about God as creator, and certainly not about Jesus. But perhaps when I was very young, I did. Still I don't remember it. As long as I can remember the entire explanation sounded like a fairy tale and I was amazed that anyone actually believed it

I share McG's and Setanta's idea about energy. I have great respect for reality, whatever it is.

I'll admit that I have a dislike (and I'll also admit that this is an understatement) for fundamentalists who try to control others by their coercive techniques. But I do see that religion, in it's more innocuous forms does serve a function and therefore is valuable to many people. Many people use it wisely and have found it helpful. Many people have had positive childhood and adult experiences with religion and that's good. As long as religion isn't used as a club, I think it's fine.

Only in recent years have I called myself anything. One day I realized I must be an Atheist.

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First i must comment that there is to me no connection whatever between religion, and theism.

Religion is, to me the indefensible adoption of predigested ideas from the past rendering thought irrelevant.

theism on the other hand, is the considered journey of a curious and open mind to seek out a place in the cosmos which affords a degree of comfort to the individual traveller.

atheism is one result of that journey (mine), but is similar in every way to theist alternatives, be they honestly 'found' and conscienciously assessed.

Yes Virginia, it is impossible to be sure of just about anything; all we can hope for as decent human beings is to formulate, and hold to beliefs that do no harm to others, and allow one to 'be' as a valued member of one's social milieux.

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Derevon wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
People who "believe" things are actually disguising the fact that they are guessing.

People who "disbelieve" things are disguising the fact that they are "believing" something different from the thing they say they "disbelieve."

In other words, they are guessing in another direction.

Everything you say seems to be based on the supposition (which you seem to have confirmed yourself in as an infallible truth), that it's not possible to know whether or not God exists, because there is insufficent evidence to support either standpoint.

Well then, consider the hypothesis that God exists, which you acknowledge is a possibility. Would it not then be possible that he has the ability to reveal himself to his creatures by means unknown to you? Just because there might not be any public evidence known of God's existence, does it necessarily have to mean that there is no personal evidence? Has it ever occurred to you that people who claim, not only to know of God's existence, but actually to know God, might have received this insight from God himself?

That's a possibility which you can't dismiss based on your standpoint. Yet you constantly seem to dismiss these persons either as pretenders, liars, or as delusional. Or as with me, all three. Why?

Sure, g-d could reveal himself to individuals in some manner and other individuals could not percieve of it (because that is part of the way being an individual works.) Note: that is also the way some forms of mental insanity work - maybe not all of these people are insane? What is insane?
Anyway, yes, if g-d could some how "telepath" and be involved in an individuals thought process in a way science could not detect in the brain (it would have to have -some- physical impact to affect a physical process), however even then if the g-d was ascribed certain physical traits that did not exist, that g-d would not exist.

However, in the case of specific dieties - such as Jesus, the dieties are ascribed certain traits. If the traits ascribed don't exist, the diety doesn't exist. You can disprove the existance of Zeus as a g-d and Jesus as a g-d almost beyond the shadow of any doubt. But you cannot disprove the concept of "g-d" partly because his/her/its definition changes over time, and partially because it may have never had -physical impact on the earth- (which dieties do) and because it may have only had impact at the earth at the point of creation and then skeddadled.

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Derevon wrote:

Although you may not explicitly have stated that it is "not possible to know if God exists", but only that a person who claims that he doesn't know if God exists or not, is right, and that a person who believes either way, may be right, it should be obvious to anyone who've read your posts that you don't believe that any person can know whether or not God exists.

Derevon

Let me try this again -- and I will do it slowly; please open your mind and at least attempt to deal with what I am saying, not what you want me to be saying.

Not only do I not state (or "believe") that it is not possible to know if a God exists -- I have actually argued with a great deal of passion against people who assert that to be so.

Got that?

My guess is that I have discussed this issue in several dozens of threads -- and I am VERY adamant on the issue. Anyone who claims that "it is impossible to know if God exists" -- is making, in my opinion, an extremely wrong-headed assertion.

If there is a God -- for absolutely certain, that God, if It chose to do so, could make Its existence KNOWN unambiguously -- without any doubt whatsoever.

Got that?

Quote:

Why else would you be calling them liars, pretenders and delusional?

I have not called anyone a liar -- nor have I called anyone delusional. I have, I acknowledge, questioned some individuals as to whether or not that person KNOWS if they are being delusional or not.

Don't make stuff up and then post it as though you are stating facts. If you cannot be ethical in your posts, argue with someone else.

Quote:

You just claimed people are guessing about God!

Post exactly what I said and we will look at it in context. I don't think you are particularly good at paraphrasing -- and you really should stay away from it.

Quote:

Unless your claim is simply a guess grabbed out of thin air, I don't see what you possibly could have based such a statement on, if not on your own beliefs.

As I said above, cut and past what I said that you find objectionable -- and we will discuss it. I don't defend myself against things I haven't actually said.

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Woody Allen has made several poignant observations regarding this topic. One which comes to mind...

"I believe in God. I just think he is something of an underachiever"

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