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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 09:31 am
I think FM may have been pushing your leg . . .
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 04:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
RE: Albert, Steven, and Carl.

Of those you've cited, only Hawking attempts to explicitly take a position that they are not an atheist. Unfortunately, Hawking is not here to discuss his position with us.

Sagan and Einstein's position does not lend support to your position that you're not an atheist.

All very smart men, and all make great cases for skepticism on the matter of gods. Should I accept an association fallacy from you?

Hawking's case seems to be the only one really comparable to your own. I'm particularly interested in this:

"He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism."

While not sympathetic, he may be empathetic. Perhaps he thinks being an atheist feels some other way? Perhaps a different "state of mind?"

These are of course the words of Henry F. Schaefer III, and I'll take him at his word, and not assume he is exaggerating Hawking's position.

Hawking's position seems to be somewhat unformed itself.

From Wiki:

Quote:
Religious views

In his early work, Hawking spoke of God in a metaphorical sense, such as in A Brief History of Time: "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God."[61] In the same book he suggested the existence of God was unnecessary to explain the origin of the universe.[62] In the Channel 4 documentary Genius of Britain, in his 2010 book The Grand Design, and in interviews with the Telegraph, Hawking has clarified that he does not believe in a "personal" God.[63] Hawking writes, "The question is: is the way the universe began chosen by God for reasons we can't understand, or was it determined by a law of science? I believe the second."[63] He adds, "Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing."[64]

His ex-wife, Jane, has described him as an atheist.[65] Hawking has stated that he is "not religious in the normal sense" and he believes that "the universe is governed by the laws of science. The laws may have been decreed by God, but God does not intervene to break the laws."[66] In an interview published in The Guardian newspaper, Hawking regarded the concept of Heaven as a myth, believing that there is "no heaven or afterlife" and that such a notion was a "fairy story for people afraid of the dark."[61][67] Hawking contrasted religion and science in 2010, saying: "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."[68]

I think that perhaps Hawking may struggle in the same sense that you do. I've tried to find more on how he is "not very sympathetic" to atheists, to see what he means by that, and what difference he believes exists between "them" and himself.

A
R
T
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 04:12 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Hawking's case seems to be the only one really comparable to your own. I'm particularly interested in this:

"He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism."


Hawking is the one LEAST like mine.

The other two say they are agnostics.

Under any circumstances I AM NOT AN ATHEIST...I am an Agnostic.

But I am finding it more and more adorable that you want me to be one of you so badly!
failures art
 
  2  
Thu 17 May, 2012 04:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Hawking's case seems to be the only one really comparable to your own. I'm particularly interested in this:

"He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism."


Hawking is the one LEAST like mine.

He's the only one that seems to have a hang up with the word "atheist."

Frank Apisa wrote:

The other two say they are agnostics.

Your agnosticism is well established. That's not at issue.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Under any circumstances I AM NOT AN ATHEIST...I am an Agnostic.

Why do you believe these terms are mutually exclusive?

Frank Apisa wrote:

But I am finding it more and more adorable that you want me to be one of you so badly!

Frank, you like the attention. We get it.

A
R
T
reasoning logic
 
  2  
Thu 17 May, 2012 04:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank I have a few questions for you. Are you a theist? Do you have a word in the Frank dictionary that you use, that defines a person who is "NOT" a theist?
To be more precise, what I am looking for is a prefix that could be added to theist to make it mean not a theist or maybe there is a completely different word that describes a person, who just is not a theist, and by the way "I am not interested in a word that describes knowledge because that is not what I am interested in.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 04:52 pm
@failures art,
He (Hawking)'s the only one that seems to have a hang up with the word "atheist."

Whatever in the world have I said to cause you to suspect I have a hang up with the word "atheist?"

I most assuredly do not.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 04:58 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Frank I have a few questions for you. Are you a theist? Do you have a word in the Frank dictionary that you use, that defines a person who is "NOT" a theist?
To be more precise, what I am looking for is a prefix that could be added to theist to make it mean not a theist or maybe there is a completely different word that describes a person, who just is not a theist, and by the way "I am not interested in a word that describes knowledge because that is not what I am interested in.


How about the prefix "non"...which I have proposed dozens of times, and I think I may have actually used it here in this thread. (I am not going to look it up.)

Does non-theist work for you?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 05:09 pm
@reasoning logic,
By the way, the prefix "anti" could be used for people who want to be known as "not a theist"...while additionally denoting antipathy toward it.

How about anti-theist?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 05:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Does non-theist work for you?
It works but it seems to be needlessly long though, when we have the letter "A" that we use on so many other words like asymmetrical and so forth.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 05:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
How about anti-theist?


You seem militant using that or maybe satanic? You are not against theism are you?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 05:39 pm
@reasoning logic,
Yes, but since atheism came into the English language before theism...it really does not make sense.

In fact, considering atheism to mean a = without + theism = belief in a god...actually does the word an injustice. It did not derive that way...and it means to be without gods...not without a belief in gods.

If you folk would stop with the "a = without + theism = belief in a god"...you could get away from that "unless you have a belief in a god you are an atheist" and "Yes, babies are atheists until they develop a belief in gods" nonsense.

Do you see what I mean, RL? And the fact that the word would be two letters longer could be tolerated somehow.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 05:40 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
You seem militant using that or maybe satanic? You are not against theism are you?


You asked for possible prefixes, RL. I gave you two. I much prefer non-theist...and I would never use anti-theist myself.

reasoning logic
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 05:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Yes, but since atheism came into the English language before theism...it really does not make sense.


H20 does not make a whole lot of sense neither and it was going to be changed but it was so well known because of plays and so forth that they left it alone.

Do you find yourself resisting the term H20 because of it's similar problems?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  3  
Thu 17 May, 2012 05:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Can you all see that the title assertion is logical and that it is not inconsistent in any way?

Is there anyone here who thinks it is illogical or inconsistent?


Sorry Frank, it makes no sense...beyond Apisa Sense.

Perhaps you've offered an explanation and a rewording, but I'm afraid I haven't read all the post on this thread.

The original premise is so blatantly nonsenical, I didn't feel the need to.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 07:03 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Do you find yourself resisting the term H20 because of it's similar problems?


If you were to call me H2O...I would tell you I am not H2O...I am Frank Apisa.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 07:06 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I do not believe gods exist...says that on my list of things that I "believe"...there are no gods. It does not say that I believe no gods exist. It is simply stating an absence of a belief that gods exist.

I also do not believe there are no gods. On my list of things that I "believe"...you will not find "that there are no gods." All I am saying is that there is an absence of a belief that there are no gods.

It is perfectly logical, Finn.

If you can see it, fine. If you cannot...I cannot help you unless you ask for further explanation.
failures art
 
  1  
Fri 18 May, 2012 12:48 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

He (Hawking)'s the only one that seems to have a hang up with the word "atheist."

Whatever in the world have I said to cause you to suspect I have a hang up with the word "atheist?"

I most assuredly do not.


Frank, if I saw this kid...
http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/tmbs/71778583ee/fullsize_11.jpg
...and told him he was a "red head" can you imagine the how ridiculous the following statements would be:

"I have red hair, but I'm not a red head."
"I like to wear hats. I'm not a red head."
"Who says that the definition of a red head is someone with red hair? Being a red head is a state of mind, and I don't have it."

I think quickly it would be clear that there is a hang up with a certain word/phrase.

Your position is exactly this. So what's your baggage with the term? I've asked you already to tell us about this "state of mind" that an atheist has.

Under your agnostic hat, is a very red headed atheist.

A
Red headed atheist without a any particular state of mind.
T
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Fri 18 May, 2012 12:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you were to call me H2O...I would tell you I am not H2O...I am Frank Apisa.

Do you avoid using the word oxygen?
I take it that you only have this obsession with the word atheist or do you find yourself not using other words that have similar problems as well, and that are commonly used in the English language?
No one has ever used the term H20 to describe you have they?
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 18 May, 2012 01:44 am
@reasoning logic,
I think I get it. Both you nd Frank need to get laid.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 18 May, 2012 02:05 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
You asked for possible prefixes, RL. I gave you two. I much prefer non-theist...and I would never use anti-theist myself.


What about adreno-theist? You only believe in God when you're punching someone in the mouth. It's a handy condition to have when the Jehovah's Witnessess come knocking.
 

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