14
   

I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 15 May, 2012 05:49 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 4983823)
Quote:

I hope calling me a weasel made you feel good, Fresco. Whatever works!



It kinda made me feel good.


Great, RL. Obviously it works for both of you...so I am happy for both of you.
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Wed 16 May, 2012 07:23 am
I am learning a lot.

Quote:
You are a weak (negative) atheist.


Atheists have valences.

Joe(but do they have Mass?)Nation
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 09:51 am
@Joe Nation,
LOL

If I had my choice of wording, I'd have used "neutral" and instead of "negative."

A
R
T
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 10:04 am
@failures art,
Art, I am not an atheist--not a negative one; not a weak one; not a neutral one...not any kind of atheist. In fact, I think "atheism" is a state of mind rather than a definition in a dictionary...and I simply do not have that state of mind.

igm and RL seem to favor my being called an atheist because I do not believe in gods. But they never back up the assertion that "not believing in gods" requires that you be an atheist. (That notion probably arises from the mistaken idea some atheists have that the word atheism is derived from prefixing an "a" to "theism"...and forcing a definition of "without a belief in gods. But of course, we all know that is incorrect...and nothing else seems to be offered for consideration. )

Agnostics do not "believe in gods." That does not make them atheists. They also do not "believe there are no gods"...and that does not make them theists.

But, if you guys are so anxious for me to be one with you in atheism that you would work as hard as you do to try to shoehorn me into that position...hey, the least I can do is to thank you for honoring me and wanting me as much as you do.

Thanks.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 10:16 am
To properly begin this discussion please define the word "gods" as you are using it in the title of your thread, Frank.

Thank You
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 10:29 am
@InfraBlue,
One does not "begin" a discussion on page 10...but we can continue it.

What definition of gods do you want to use? If I find it deficient for my needs, I will tell you why I see difficulty and we can try to resolve any differences.

I just do not believe in any gods.
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 01:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Art, I am not an atheist--not a negative one; not a weak one; not a neutral one...not any kind of atheist.

Denial.

Frank Apisa wrote:

In fact, I think "atheism" is a state of mind rather than a definition in a dictionary...

Thanks for sharing your opinion. Tell us more about this "state of mind" that atheists have that defines them. I was unaware I shared a state of mind with anyone atheist or otherwise.

Frank Apisa wrote:

and I simply do not have that state of mind.

And since you dictate what that elusive undetermined state of mind is, you can't perform all the needed mental gymnastics to avoid that icky word: Atheist.

How convenient.

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm and RL seem to favor my being called an atheist because I do not believe in gods. But they never back up the assertion that "not believing in gods" requires that you be an atheist.

It's not a membership--it's a definition. The definition of a person who does not believe in gods is an atheist. All other details about their knowledge, their feelings, their beliefs, their "state of mind," their feelings, their guesses, or their opinions only describe other qualities about the person.

Frank Apisa wrote:

(That notion probably arises from the mistaken idea some atheists have that the word atheism is derived from prefixing an "a" to "theism"...and forcing a definition of "without a belief in gods. But of course, we all know that is incorrect...and nothing else seems to be offered for consideration. )

Nobody responds to this, because you are arguing against an argument that nobody is making here. Nobody is informing you of your atheism due to etymological origins. You'll note that even your objection doesn't negate the proper use of the term as applied to you. It doesn't matter if the word "atheist" came before "theist." What matters is the definitions of these words.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Agnostics do not "believe in gods."

They can. Being an agnostic says nothing of belief. It only speaks to knowledge. I know agnostics that believe. I'd venture that this is actually the largest portion of the religious community. It describes positions of faith quite well.

Frank Apisa wrote:

That does not make them atheists.

It doesn't say anything about atheism inclusive or exclusive.

Frank Apisa wrote:

They also do not "believe there are no gods"...and that does not make them theists.

Because it says nothing of belief at all. It only speaks to knowledge.

Frank Apisa wrote:

But, if you guys are so anxious for me to be one with you in atheism that you would work as hard as you do to try to shoehorn me into that position...hey, the least I can do is to thank you for honoring me and wanting me as much as you do.

It's not a lot of work. It's a simple application of the definition. You're doing the hard work to resist this. It's not to "honor" you or however else you want to pat your ego. Atheism, isn't a "state of mind." You're adding superficial clauses on to the meaning of the word to exclude yourself.

What is your baggage with this word?

Frank Apisa wrote:

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Atheist Frank.
R
T
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 02:18 pm
@failures art,
Art…good to see you today. My golf was horrible this morning...so bad I've been in a funk. I must acknowledge that being able to have a discussion with you makes things a bit better.

I am not an atheist, Art—I am an agnostic.

I understand that atheists do not “believe” in gods…and that is all well and good. But agnostics do not “believe” in gods either (or SOME agnostics if you feel that is more particular)…and I am an agnostic. So apparently that is the reason you are confused.

You can look at the title to my thread here and see. It reads: I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

You see that first part? I do NOT believe gods exist. I do not know for sure they do not; I have been careful not to assert they do not; I have gone so far as to specify that I do not assert they do not...BUT I do not believe gods exist. In other words, if you were to look at the list of things that I “believe”…there would be no gods on it.

(In a way, you’ve gotta take my word for that, Art, because you do not have access to my list of things that I “believe”…but I am absolutely sure there are no gods on it. I could actually post my list of things I "believe"...but you would probably think that to be self-serving.)

SO…I do not believe there are gods, although I acknowledge there might be some somewhere…and I am an agnostic.

Some questions I might ask:

Why are you so anxious to define me as an atheist? What is in it for you? What void will be filled in your life that you would pursue this issue with such intensity?
failures art
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 02:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Art…good to see you today. My golf was horrible this morning...so bad I've been in a funk. I must acknowledge that being able to have a discussion with you makes things a bit better.

Hook or slice?

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am not an atheist, Art—I am an agnostic.

Oh... So you're not spaghetti, you're a pasta dish with spaghetti noodles, and tomato sauce. Spaghetti is a state of mind and MUST have mushrooms. Right?

Frank Apisa wrote:

I understand that atheists do not “believe” in gods…and that is all well and good. But agnostics do not “believe” in gods either (or SOME agnostics if you feel that is more particular)…and I am an agnostic. So apparently that is the reason you are confused.

If you can acknowledge that being agnostic doesn't dictate whether or not you believe, then you're making progress toward understanding.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You can look at the title to my thread here and see. It reads: I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

The latter is a superfluous philosophical ballast. No real meaningful statement to be made about a rejection of a non-belief. Joefromchicago had it right. You should simply state that you have no formulation of belief on the existence of gods.

Your resistance to this seems to be the real obstacle here.

Frank Apisa wrote:

You see that first part? I do NOT believe gods exist. I do not know for sure they do not; I have been careful not to assert they do not; I have gone so far as to specify that I do not assert they do not...BUT I do not believe gods exist. In other words, if you were to look at the list of things that I “believe”…there would be no gods on it.

Whether you assert they don't exist or they simply do not feature among what you've been convinced to believe in (gravity, good coffee, bad referees), you still satisfy the basic definition of atheist.

Frank Apisa wrote:

(In a way, you’ve gotta take my word for that, Art, because you do not have access to my list of things that I “believe”…but I am absolutely sure there are no gods on it. I could actually post my list of things I "believe"...but you would probably think that to be self-serving.)

I do take your word on what your list contains. I'm trying to assist you in accepting what that means.

Frank Apisa wrote:

SO…I do not believe there are gods, although I acknowledge there might be some somewhere…and I am an agnostic.

Yes, you are. An agnostic atheist.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Why are you so anxious to define me as an atheist?

I'm not anxious. I'm curious as to the origins of your distaste for the word "atheist." You've gone as far as to describe it as a state of mind, and so it seems that it's a state of mind you wish to avoid. Confronting this, seems to be at the core of discussion.

Frank Apisa wrote:

What is in it for you?

Nothing. What's in it for you to avoid being an atheist? What about that "state of mind" is so troublesome to you?

Frank Apisa wrote:

What void will be filled in your life that you would pursue this issue with such intensity?

You have not seen intensity from me, Frank.

A
R
T
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 03:17 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Hook or slice?


Oh, if only it were that easy, Art.

Actually, neither hook nor slice…but fairway Frank was not fairway Frank today because of deviant shots that went the wrong place in a straight line. Or shots that went straight, but only went one-third the distance they were supposed to go. Or problems dealing with how properly to align one’s third putt!

It was a disaster! But there is always tomorrow.

Anyway, back to the detour at hand (we’ve left the subject at hand)…and perhaps a few words from some individuals might help understand why I am unwilling to allow you to simply dismiss my designation of myself considering my personal philosophy. PLEASE do not consider this an appeal to authority…I offer this only in response to your questions about me “confronting” my refusal to accept your authority on this issue…and your insistence that I designate myself an atheist.

The first is from Albert Einstein in a letter to M. Berkowitz, October 25, 1950. Albert Einstein did not “believe in god”…and he wrote:

My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

The second concerns Stephen Hawking (who also does not “believe” in gods), from Henry F. Schaefer III, in his book, “Stephen Hawking, the Big Bang, and God:

Now, lest anyone be confused, let me state that Hawking strenuously denies charges that he is an atheist. When he is accused of that he really gets angry and says that such assertions are not true at all. He is an agnostic or deist or something more along those lines. He's certainly not an atheist and not even very sympathetic to atheism.

The third is from Carl Sagan in a profile done by Jim Dawson in the Minneapolis Star-Tribune: Carl Sagan talked about his then-new book The Demon Haunted World and was asked about his personal spiritual views:

"My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it," he said. "An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there is evidence for it, so I'm agnostic."

Art…Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Carl Sagan…hardly stupid individuals…all pretty much offering the same take I am offering here. All prefering the designation “agnostic.” I would hope you have enough respect for individuals such as these to allow them to designate themselves as they choose. And I see no reason for you to suggest it better for me to acceed to your insistence that I designate myself an atheist, rather than follow the lead of these learned men and stick with agnostic.

You have acknowledged there is nothing in it for you…and these geniuses see nothing illogical or devious in it…so why not just drop it and allow me to decide what I am?


And here is a picture of me discussing the issue with Al a few years back.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk17/frankapisa/Einstein.jpg
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 04:06 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
One does not "begin" a discussion on page 10...but we can continue it.

What definition of gods do you want to use? If I find it deficient for my needs, I will tell you why I see difficulty and we can try to resolve any differences.

I just do not believe in any gods.


One does not properly begin a discussion about nebulous things like "gods" without defining one's terms so as to mitigate, as much as can be expected given the subject matter, any ambiguity thereof.

Let's use the definition of "gods" by which you're operating, and then if you find your own definition deficient for your needs, you can tell us why you see difficulty and we can try to resolve these difficulties.

What do you mean by "gods" when you say you just do not believe in gods?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 16 May, 2012 04:15 pm
@InfraBlue,

Quote:
Let's use the definition of "gods" by which you're operating, and then if you find your own definition deficient for your needs, you can tell us why you see difficulty and we can try to resolve these difficulties.

What do you mean by "gods" when you say you just do not believe in gods?


I mean any gods!

If you have any gods that might prevent you from doing the discussing you say you want to do...ask me about it. I will check my list of things I believe...and if it is on there, I promise I will tell you. If not, we have no problem.

So...use whatever description of gods you want...and start your discussion...and let's see if any adjustments have to be made. I can have a discussion using nothing more than "I do not believe in any gods." If you cannot...we might not be able to discuss.

But because I see you are anxious to discuss...why not give it a shot and just use "any gods" and get right into the discussion you want to pursue?
IRFRANK
 
  4  
Thu 17 May, 2012 07:50 am
So, you're not sure there is no god, or gods, but your just not willing to believe it, either way.

Have you thought about politics?


fwiw - I don't know either and have decided I never will know.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 07:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I mean any gods!


What about..... "God of the Long Chance, the impossible odds, the punchdrunk fighter who comes up off the floor to win by a knockout."

William Burroughs
farmerman
 
  2  
Thu 17 May, 2012 08:26 am
@izzythepush,
I always tghought IR FRANK and FRANKAPISA were the same guy. Duuuuuuhhhhh.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 08:41 am
@IRFRANK,
Quote:
So, you're not sure there is no god, or gods, but your just not willing to believe it, either way.


That pretty much covers it. I am not willing to guess or estimate or suppose or "believe" in either direction.

Quote:
Have you thought about politics?


I have indeed.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 08:42 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
I mean any gods!



What about..... "God of the Long Chance, the impossible odds, the punchdrunk fighter who comes up off the floor to win by a knockout."

William Burroughs


Yup, Izzy, that god too.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 08:44 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I always tghought IR FRANK and FRANKAPISA were the same guy. Duuuuuuhhhhh.


Nope.

I think this was the first time I've ever commented to or had comments from IR FRANK.
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 08:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
when you went away, IR showed up. I just figured that you were homo- in -cognito
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 17 May, 2012 08:57 am
@farmerman,
Nope.

Actually, I have never posted anything on the Internet under any name but my actual name...which is Frank Apisa. I know most of us Italian Americans who use Frank are actually Francis, or Francesco...but I am just Frank--Fairway Frank to my golfing buddies.

Shot another 97 today. Horrible. With all the golf I play...and my years of experience, I should never be above 90...but I have really sucked these last few weeks.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2023 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/01/2023 at 08:26:31