@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Art…good to see you today. My golf was horrible this morning...so bad I've been in a funk. I must acknowledge that being able to have a discussion with you makes things a bit better.
Hook or slice?
Frank Apisa wrote:
I am not an atheist, Art—I am an agnostic.
Oh... So you're not spaghetti, you're a pasta dish with spaghetti noodles, and tomato sauce. Spaghetti is a state of mind and MUST have mushrooms. Right?
Frank Apisa wrote:
I understand that atheists do not “believe” in gods…and that is all well and good. But agnostics do not “believe” in gods either (or SOME agnostics if you feel that is more particular)…and I am an agnostic. So apparently that is the reason you are confused.
If you can acknowledge that being agnostic doesn't dictate whether or not you believe, then you're making progress toward understanding.
Frank Apisa wrote:
You can look at the title to my thread here and see. It reads: I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.
The latter is a superfluous philosophical ballast. No real meaningful statement to be made about a rejection of a non-belief. Joefromchicago had it right. You should simply state that you have no formulation of belief on the existence of gods.
Your resistance to this seems to be the real obstacle here.
Frank Apisa wrote:
You see that first part? I do NOT believe gods exist. I do not know for sure they do not; I have been careful not to assert they do not; I have gone so far as to specify that I do not assert they do not...BUT I do not believe gods exist. In other words, if you were to look at the list of things that I “believe”…there would be no gods on it.
Whether you assert they don't exist or they simply do not feature among what you've been convinced to believe in (gravity, good coffee, bad referees), you still satisfy the basic definition of atheist.
Frank Apisa wrote:
(In a way, you’ve gotta take my word for that, Art, because you do not have access to my list of things that I “believe”…but I am absolutely sure there are no gods on it. I could actually post my list of things I "believe"...but you would probably think that to be self-serving.)
I do take your word on what your list contains. I'm trying to assist you in accepting what that means.
Frank Apisa wrote:
SO…I do not believe there are gods, although I acknowledge there might be some somewhere…and I am an agnostic.
Yes, you are. An agnostic atheist.
Frank Apisa wrote:
Why are you so anxious to define me as an atheist?
I'm not anxious. I'm curious as to the origins of your distaste for the word "atheist." You've gone as far as to describe it as a state of mind, and so it seems that it's a state of mind you wish to avoid. Confronting this, seems to be at the core of discussion.
Frank Apisa wrote:
What is in it for you?
Nothing. What's in it for you to avoid being an atheist? What about that "state of mind" is so troublesome to you?
Frank Apisa wrote:
What void will be filled in your life that you would pursue this issue with such intensity?
You have not seen intensity from me, Frank.
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