Aunt Thomasina?

...and I do understand how one might sort of see that as the counterpart to the bowing scraping black man. But, the whole "tom" persona is considered to be a disgrace and shame to blacks because it is seen to say something about the man's character - who trades his human dignity for better favor or proximity to power or safety (especially in situations when he could choose not to). But, slave women and black handmaidens weren't trading their humanity - they were having it taken from them. A subtle, but definite difference.

The Term "Uncle Tom" was inspired by the central character in Harriet Breecher Stowe's novel of that name. In fact the character portrayed was of a man who was loyal and loving to all - family friends and master. In a world full of cruelty and selfishness, he was portrayed as loving, selfless and, in the Christian sense, morally superior to those around him. The novel was very well read and influential at the time, and is generally recognized as a major factor in mobilizing public revulsion over slavery and all that it entails, and indeed inciting the civil war that ended slavery here. Other chariactures of black people, women and children were derived from the book as well, some that can be viewed as confirming or alternately contradicting Snood's speculations in this matter.

I think the essential point is that these chariactures and all they imply are rather superficial and trivial compared to the real meaning of the work and the figures that inspired them. In that context emphasizing the chariactures and worrying about their implications is probably more often harmful than beneficial to those concerned. Understanding the meaning of the story is probably more useful for all. Real achievment in most aspects of life requires s lot more than assertiveness, aggression and mere beligerence. It's hard to travel either far or fast with a chip on your shoulder.

There's lots of chariactures out there - of Jews, Irishmen, Swedes, Italians ... the list is very long. None have proved fatal and none is entirely evil or utterly without occasional humor or even truth. Getting over them is probably a lot more useful than worrying about them.

The implication that the mere discussion of the phenomena of racial stereotypes in general and black stereotypes specifically is somehow something other than "getting over it" is stupid and myopic, but totally predictable from those of certain mindsets. So it goes. That particular train is never late - start talking about any issue related to race, and someone will show up to tell you that the problem, dear child, is your focusing on it rather than just "getting over it".

Hehehehehehehe , , ,

Tell 'em snood. People should not get away with trivializing something that destroys and otherwise cripples so many lives as a simple matter of course. I suspect that humans will never get beyond bigotry entirely, but we can try.

You'd be a major fool to think that women, being people, didn't engage in this sort of behavior, Snood. But you're really good at believing canards.

Since I live in a rural area I have to agree with you. But in their defense there are no jobs in this area and without food stamps and other aid there would would be families starving. In reference to white woman.

OK, you think I am stupid and myopic and that my attitude is totally predictable for one of my evident "mindset". Forgive me for seeing a certain self-serving tendency on your part to impose a chariacature on me in all this.

The truth is it is you, not me, who is injured by this. Moreover, I don't think that contemporary preconceptions about blacks really are that they are predominantly uncle Toms in the superficial and trivial sense of the charicature. Quite the opposite - perceptions of criminality and violence are much more frequent and probably often just as unfair.

I do also have the impression that in some cases blacks who have achieved success and prominence in the world are unfairly labelled as Uncle Toms in the sense of the chariacature, by those who may merely envy their success and independent thinking. I suspect that too is a pervasive factor holding back many young black men.

I don't apply these ideas to racial issues exclusively at all. Seeing ones self as a victim for any reason is a good way, given the common human nature we all share equally, to seduce ones self into rationalizations and excuses and away from real achievement and self-fulfillment - no matter what may be the particular factors behind the perceived victimhood.

So do whites of both sexes.

So true

I wonder if the negative stereotypes about Black males correlates to the negative stereotypes sometimes thought by Northerners about Southern lower class males, regardless of race. For example, Black males and their concerns over being dissed (disrespected) may just be the Southern white equivalent of protecting one's "honor."

Also, I was surprised when I was seeing a movie where the story line took place in the South today, and the white Southerners would interject the question, "Where he at?" I thought, this was Black colloquial dialogue, until I realized that Northern urban African-Americans are for all intensive purposes Southerners that moved North. So, perhaps the negative stereotypes regarding Black males is no different than the negative stereotype that some Northerners have for a specific class of Southern white male?

And, to focus on a Black male having to pander to the white establishment, in some deferent role, is no different than many white ethnics having to pander to the WASP establishment in a deferent manner.

The thought that focussing on stereotypes should be gotten "over" is the most mentally healthy, in my opinion; otherwise, one might live one's life like some "Holocaust survivors," continually lamenting the historical tragedy and feeling one might be disloyal to one's history if the lament reaches closure.

Plus, since we are all Americans, and the political fringe, going back to the 19th century Know Nothing party, have been discredited with most citizens, focussing on what should be, could be thought of by some as just "divisive" for America, since there are many groups that have their own lists of what should be, in my opinion.

Snood, while I understand the concerns you post, my question is how much of the solution should fall in the laps of the supposed victim? You may not be aware, as many are not, but in NYC in 1910 80% of NYC jails were filled with Jewish males. Yes, in 1910 Jews were the criminal element in NYC. Then my mother's generation of Jewish women in NYC raised their sons to do their homework and go to college. Today, few know that Jews were once the criminal (I mean stick-up men, not white-collar crime) element in NYC.

Considering you are educated, why take the negative stereotypes personally, since there are still negative stereotypes for many ethnic groups, regional groups (i.e., Appalachia), religious groups, etc., etc. That's what humans do, in my opinion; we put people into pigeon holes to make sense of a complicated world, when we are all not social scientists.

I think Calamity Jane is correct when she mentions the maid or lowly female domestic servant being the female Uncle Tom. Miss Prissy in Gone With the Wind is the classic example. Kowtows to her masters, but is child-like, cowardly, bit of a wise ass , and not to be trusted to come through when you need her most.

I actually had to scroll back up to see if I was really reading a Foofie posting.

It's fairly simple.

"Uncle Tom" is an emasculated figure.

That an Uncle Tom bows and shuffles before those who would oppress him and his people is merely salt on the wound. His deepest failing is that he won't or can't actualize his masculine role of aggressive protector of the pride.

There are no such expectations of women, no matter what the color of their skin.

That black women have assumed this burden and been rewarded with stereotypical regard focused on anger ( both without and within their people) is a sad irony born of the culturally disfiguring blight of institutionalized slavery.

Take a people whose culture is framed on very rigid roles and conceptions of the sexes and place them in a nightmare world of slavery and it's no wonder they have long lasting family centered issues.

Attempt to "solve" these problems with socially engineered "solutions" that perpetuate an environment wherein the classic family structure is distorted, and you have the unfortunate history of African-Americans.

What is particularly ironic, and even tragic, is how black men who shrug off the chains of slavery and the victim identity and promote self-reliance and personal accountability are identified as "Uncle Toms" by the so called leaders of the black community.

I doubt that many in this forum will leap to agree with me, but I find black conservatives (for lack of a better and more accurate term) to be incredibly courageous and honorable...anything but scraping servile bootlickers.

Listen to what they say and read what they write. They are hardly beholding to Whitey or The Massa for their lot in life.

This is not an issue of race, expect to the extent that the "race" of Africans allowed them to be considered property in a White society.

It is an issue of a people and the terrible distortions of slavery.

Since the slave owners didn't voluntarily give their slaves freedom, it was, unfortunately, inevitable that the freed slaves would continue to suffer socially.

Ultimately it is up to every individual to rise above their circumstances.

No matter how well intended the ancestors of the slave owners may be, they simply don't care as much as the individual burdened by the legacy of slavery.

The real "Uncle Toms" are those black leaders who pursue personal power and gain by encouraging their people to focus on Whites as the source of everything worthwhile in their lives.

I really have to agree with most of what you said here. A black man who has the audacity to agree with economic or structural ideas that spring from a more Republican outlook is damned as an Uncle Tom. Its weird because the bravery it takes to follow your own opinion against an avalanche of cruelty makes such a person much more courageous than the pack.

Your definition, and reasoning, explain why there's no real female counterpart.

Any woman - black or white - who asserts herself earns that special word in our society.

I disagree with you. Their not uncle toms, just too stupid to know who is most interested in their welfare.

Actually in many cases they know exactly who will be interested in their welfare. What is good for Herman Cain is probably good for Mitt Romney.

They are called Toms.

I don't think Colin Powell is stupid, nor Condi - nor their many counterparts who don't pigeon-hole themselves as only black, but Americans with their own personal interests, theories and ideas.

Maybe it's because the percentage of Blacks who like servile Black suckups to Whites is negligible. By contrast, the percentage of males, including Black males, who like servile female suckups is not negligible. Worse, a sizable minority of females, including Black females, is also still sold on the silly notion that women ought to be deferent. So, when a Black male sucks up to Whites, people will see him as betraying his race. But when a Black woman sucks up to Whites, people may well just see her as appropriately compliant with her supposedly-proper gender role.

A....harrumphed...fuckingmen.