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Why does the Universe exist?

 
 
north
 
  1  
Sun 13 May, 2012 08:00 pm
@JPLosman0711,
JPLosman0711 wrote:
Vicious cycle, you're just demanding 'explanations' as your way-out of thinking during the conversation. Obviously my post was 'understandable' otherwise you wouldn't have been able to read it, nor could I have typed it. Only he who already understands can 'listen'. We're done here.


hmmm

didn't understand the last part , hence the ????????
north
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2012 03:14 pm
@north,
so anyway the Universe does exist

and it does because energy , matter and space are infinite
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2012 03:36 pm
@north,
What difference would it make if I said that the Universe exists because energy, matter and space are finite ?
I suppose I would be saying that they are concrete because they are finite (or finite because they are real).
To my mind "infinite" is no more than a mathematical concept, sans empirical significance.
north
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2012 03:54 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

What difference would it make if I said that the Universe exists because energy, matter and space are finite ?
I suppose I would be saying that they are concrete because they are finite (or finite because they are real).
To my mind "infinite" is no more than a mathematical concept, sans empirical significance.


because the finite by its Nature means a limited existence , thats why
Krumple
 
  2  
Sun 20 May, 2012 07:34 pm
@north,
north wrote:
because the finite by its Nature means a limited existence , thats why


Actually this is not accurate either.

You could have a finite quantity of something. Like number of atoms could be finite. It says absolutely nothing about those atoms existence. It does not mean that they have a finite existence because there is a finite quantity.

So when people talk about nature or energy, or matter being finite it says nothing about the length or existence of that energy or matter.

There is a limit to how much energy and matter is in the universe but at the same time this energy and or matter could be infinite in existence. This statement is supported by the laws of thermodynamics.

To be finite doesn't dictate that all characteristics of something also need to be finite.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sun 20 May, 2012 11:25 pm
@Krumple,
"It does not mean that they have a finite existence because there is a finite." quantity.
Subtle point!
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Tue 22 May, 2012 04:04 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:

north wrote:
because the finite by its Nature means a limited existence , thats why


Actually this is not accurate either.

You could have a finite quantity of something. Like number of atoms could be finite. It says absolutely nothing about those atoms existence. It does not mean that they have a finite existence because there is a finite quantity.

So when people talk about nature or energy, or matter being finite it says nothing about the length or existence of that energy or matter.

There is a limit to how much energy and matter is in the universe but at the same time this energy and or matter could be infinite in existence. This statement is supported by the laws of thermodynamics.

To be finite doesn't dictate that all characteristics of something also need to be finite.


the problem becomes when one has space that is zero Kelvin and has a energy source of heat such as a galaxy

meaning that the heat given off by the galaxy , into cold of space is not replenished or balanced , the heat is lost forever

hence the Universe becomes colder

JPLosman0711
 
  1  
Tue 22 May, 2012 11:00 pm
@north,
^LOL
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Wed 23 May, 2012 08:44 pm
@north,
oh North...obviously the heat is not lost or how do you think the temperature of space is above absolute zero...did you forgot the basics on conservation ?
You must be tired I presume go to sleep and read again tomorrow mate !
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Wed 23 May, 2012 08:58 pm
@Krumple,
Imagining Time as a totally separate absolute dimension as you imply even if going against Einstein postulate still says nothing on its infinite dimension...
...Consider for instance that not stopping simply means Time folds on itself like a circle...You are associating Time with relative movement which is different and self contradictory regarding you initial assertion...if we go from there movement is in things as far as we know and not in bits of time as any separate thing...but again if you take that assertion how do you know time is infinite in dimension only because it does not stop ? It may well be that Time repeats, in fact we know it for such...now how does repeating affects our conception of infinity ? Again imagine for instance a sequence of events in a non continuum but rather discrete frame in which nothing changes but everything repeats and stays the same including time...how is that Infinite ? oh and what I mean let me clarify it is not the repeating of a sequence of different events but a sequence of a single frozen frame as an event...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Wed 23 May, 2012 09:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
...the problem seems to be that without noticing you are creating a space within for time to move forward but that in turn says nothing about such space being infinite in length...it may well just be that such space is curved upon itself like in a circle...
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 23 May, 2012 10:50 pm
@north,
north wrote:
the problem becomes when one has space that is zero Kelvin and has a energy source of heat such as a galaxy

meaning that the heat given off by the galaxy , into cold of space is not replenished or balanced , the heat is lost forever

hence the Universe becomes colder


Initially I would agree with you but there is something that is missing. You can't destroy atoms. Yes you can break them apart but you can't destroy them.

So technically even if what you say is true, what you end up with is at least hydrogen in the universe. Well we know that pretty much all stars are made out of hydrogen. In effect what you would actually get, is more stars because elements break down and are trying to revert back to hydrogen. Now not everything breaks all the way down but it doesn't matter.

Stars will always form if they can manage to scrounge up enough free elements in space to ignite the fusion reaction. In otherwords it is a cycle. The stars build up elements in the process of fusion and some blow up spitting all their elements out and others hold onto them and become super dense dying stars.

Now the problem here is the expansion rate of the universe. If it continues as it is going, then essentially it will pull even atoms apart. The space between the atoms will start to stretch thus overcoming the atomic strong force holding them together. We don't know what happens or what would happen if this were to occur. Maybe the space itself tears open and that tearing open sparks a new universe, we don't know.

To address the cold issue. Well there really is no absolute zero in space. All particles and atoms have at least some energy even in the space between the stars. It is really difficult for them to lose this last bit of energy and given enough time with gravity these particles will condense and form stars. Just like they have been for millions of years.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Wed 23 May, 2012 10:58 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Imagining Time as a totally separate absolute dimension as you imply even if going against Einstein postulate still says nothing on its infinite dimension...
...Consider for instance that not stopping simply means Time folds on itself like a circle...You are associating Time with relative movement which is different and self contradictory regarding you initial assertion...if we go from there movement is in things as far as we know and not in bits of time as any separate thing...but again if you take that assertion how do you know time is infinite in dimension only because it does not stop ?


Well sort of. I don't know if it can stop. However; I do think time is more of a inmaterial theoretical thing and not so much tied into the fabric of space. I could be wrong and I have a lot of people who would say I am wrong. So technically time could do anything, including stop, or reverse, or speed up or slow down.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

It may well be that Time repeats, in fact we know it for such...now how does repeating affects our conception of infinity ? Again imagine for instance a sequence of events in a non continuum but rather discrete frame in which nothing changes but everything repeats and stays the same including time...


Now this, I have a hard time invisioning. I don't see how something can repeat but not change. Change itself would be necessary. It is sort of a contradiction to say something can continue but not change. This is my original objection I have towards the standard definition of time. Time is change itself.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

how is that Infinite ? oh and what I mean let me clarify it is not the repeating of a sequence of different events but a sequence of a single frozen frame as an event...


I have a really hard time imagining how that would work. Not sure why it would even occur. What would cause something like that? I would still think that time would be necessary even though you are suggesting no change is occuring. It would be like a million photographs of the same moment without any difference between them. But what does that mean? The photo copier got stuck? I don't understand the significance of it. If a being existed in this realm of a million stuck moments it still could not function or act.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Thu 24 May, 2012 07:21 am
@Krumple,
I am not saying I disagree or not...I don't think you understood the point in my imaginary exercise...the goal was to focus you in what Time might be to you...and why infinity might be a sophisticated trick...the point being as you suggested something must always change...if you did pay attention you would have noticed I said "creating space within", an axis, which amounts for the change you were demanding...now if the "inner space frame" of the time arrow folds on itself in a circle you can have a repeating sequence without stopping which simulates infinity in a finite frame...its a trick !

When you say something must always change there are 2 different paths for that assertion...one goes about infinite diversity and the other a finite sequence repeating forever...while I believe in the second I don't believe in the first...that would have to mean that something grows in Nothingness and I don't believe Being grows nor that Nothingness exists...such that infinite diversity is impossible.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Thu 24 May, 2012 07:35 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Now the point is the following Time cannot be of itself because change is in things and how they arrange in discrete space frames...what folds on itself is this arrangement of an all encompassing max length algorithm of geometry...Its not infinite although it can repeat infinitely with a fourth coordinate or axis simulating movement...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Thu 24 May, 2012 08:05 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
...obviously the hardest of it all is to imagine how you can simulate movement without movement of any kind in each of these frozen frames...what happens to data from one frame to another ?
Well as I see it, these sequences of information from frame to frame loose and gain certain amounts of data with a certain pattern to it where regularity's on how the world goes on working is established...now is such data truly lost ? No not really, as each frame keeps on existing forever in its own spatial position along the axis of all other frames...this in turn also allows us to understand that you don't need nothingness or emptiness to exist as a place from where reality walks to in the future or comes from in the distant past...All there is is there, and its stopped, and frozen...as nothing is out of it or beyond it...some call it World others prefer a mystifying word as God...for me, well lets just say I am indifferent to any, you go on and peak whatever you like...
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 11:38 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I am not saying I disagree or not...I don't think you understood the point in my imaginary exercise...the goal was to focus you in what Time might be to you...and why infinity might be a sophisticated trick...the point being as you suggested something must always change...if you did pay attention you would have noticed I said "creating space within", an axis, which amounts for the change you were demanding...now if the "inner space frame" of the time arrow folds on itself in a circle you can have a repeating sequence without stopping which simulates infinity in a finite frame...its a trick !


Well this is one reason why I don't like to have discussions on infinity. Not only do we not have the ability to imagine infinity but so many consequences dealing with infinity get left out of the discussion or completely glossed over like they are unimportant. I like to try and be all inclusive with a discussion and it bugs me when details are left out.

What I undertand you are discribing here, I would go as far as to make the claim that you arn't actually dealing with infinity or even a repeating event. Although the loop would occur as you suggest, it is not the same loop. It is just another iteration of that loop but not the same loop. Sort of like the "back in time" analogy. If you had a time machine and you set it to go back in time, you really are not going back in time, instead your future self is traveling to a previous time, but it is still your future self.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

When you say something must always change there are 2 different paths for that assertion...one goes about infinite diversity and the other a finite sequence repeating forever...while I believe in the second I don't believe in the first...that would have to mean that something grows in Nothingness and I don't believe Being grows nor that Nothingness exists...such that infinite diversity is impossible.


See I actually believe that things manefest out of nothingness. For example, thoughts. Now you could argue that thoughts are not material and therefore do not count but I think thoughts are the manefestation based on material things, ie neurons and chemical reactions. These thoughts don't always exist, they seem to arise and disappear and if you will, emerge out of nothingness and return to it. Since this can occur, I don't see why something else couldn't be similar to this. I have no problem seeing something emerge completely out of nothingness but it must also have the ability to return to it. It can't just spring up and become permenant. Both must be true.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 01:33 pm
@Krumple,
Question did I miss u >?< Drunk
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 04:10 pm
@Krumple,
Interesting points.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 08:22 pm
@Krumple,
You should know that thoughts as all things are assembled they donĀ“t came out of nothingness but out of constituents...where did you get the amazing impression that thoughts come out of nothingness anyway ???
...and no I am not arguing that thoughts are immaterial nor do I need to do it to make a point...while knowledge is immaterial thoughts are not...
0 Replies
 
 

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