Nothing can be destroyed or created

@Rickoshay75,

...the important question is to establish if change comes in packets or rather is a continuum...honestly hope that packets comes up as the right answer otherwise our possible understanding of the world just goes down the drain...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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honestly hope that packets comes up as the right answer

Rick forgive me for being too lazy to review all four pages but could you explain why the idea of Analog Universe is so depressing

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@dalehileman,

...all mechanics and all measurements become meaningless...any distance becomes infinite...Logic falls to the ground and any hopes of reasoning reality are truly lost...now how depressing is that for you ?

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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...now how depressing is that for you ?

Not depressed so much as confused. Don’t understand why an analog Universe, one not proceeding in discrete steps, is so inconceivable

Maybe it’s a semantic issue

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@dalehileman,

...without packets of space what you have in turn is an infinitely dividable space which in turn makes any attempt of mechanically explain how it works useless...if you can't understand that you might just as well do some reading or think upon it a little harder, that is, if you, as an average clod, feel up to the task... Laughing

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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……..an infinitely dividable space which in turn makes any attempt of mechanically explain how it works useless…

But why
This is first I’ve heard. A quick Googling doesn’t seem to confirm what I understand you to assert, leading me to conclude that we seem to be at some sort of semantic impasse

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=34&gs_id=3q&xhr=t&q=space+divisible+into+quantum+units&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=space+divisible+into+quantum+units&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=5abbcb0bb13e2b84&biw=1588&bih=841

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that is, if you, as an average clod, feel up to the task...

Not if I have to drive to the library but if what you maintain is true can you provide a link to somewhere explaining in short sentences of few words suitable to your Typical Blockhead (me)

Failing that, how about we establish a new OP which might attract other participants more willing to elaborate on this theme of divisibility and perhaps more tolerant of the limitations imposed by the advanced age of 81 and incipient Alz's

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@dalehileman,

...perhaps you could clarify to us all you solution to Zeno's paradox...
Simply put how is it that an object travelling what seams to be a given length actually can travel any distance at all if space is infinitely devisable...how can it even move an inch in any given direction when any length you choose is infinite ? Even if we agree to establish that movement is set for several degrees of infinity with several degrees of infinite energy required you still have a problem on transcendental reality's there...that is you cannot mechanically explain how is it that different infinity's connect to each other...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Isn't "degrees of infinity" a contradiction in terms?

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@Cyracuz,

Accordingly to Cantor it is not...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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@JLNobody,

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Given an infinite amount of time everything is probable.

Disagree. Please see

http://able2know.org/topic/191842-1

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

...the important question is to establish if change comes in packets or rather is a continuum...honestly hope that packets comes up as the right answer otherwise our possible understanding of the world just goes down the drain...

Packets do not come up as the right answer and the continuum answer is a fudge.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

...perhaps you could clarify to us all you solution to Zeno's paradox...

Aha. What you’re saying is that Zeno’s paradox has been proven to constitute absolute proof of the quantum nature of everything

That’s news to me, when did it happen and why hasn’t it been widely reported

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@dalehileman,

Quote:

...the important question is to establish if change comes in packets or rather is a continuum...honestly hope that packets comes up as the right answer otherwise our possible understanding of the world just goes down the drain...

Care to pay attention there mate !
Its a question not a certain answer...
What has been asserted was that if infinite (continuum) the consequences for logic are mind boggling...besides its not about the quantum nature which is on itself a very vague assertion but rather about discrete or continuum space...and even if discrete it can still be infinite if space really expands in nothingness as some suggest...I personally don't come to terms with expansion in nothingness simply because nothingness is a miss concept...it does not exist ! So bottom line the Multiverse is set from everything which is possible with a finite number of probable things that can happen and that will happen...that is I believe that the universe is computational in its essence and although huge it is not infinite !

(Quantum comes from Quanta which means quantity or packet)
("In physics, a quantum (plural: quanta) is the minimum amount of any physical entity involved in an interaction.")

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Ok point well taken. However your statement,

Quote:

...honestly hope that packets comes up as the right answer otherwise our possible understanding of the world just goes down the drain...

seems to indicate you’re pretty sure that it won’t come up analog

…...but I don’t understand why if it does you’re so sure everything goes to hell

Thus as I had guessed, partly at least a semantic issue. I had supposed that you meant to assert that Zeno’s paradox had recently been shown to conclusively demonstrate the unliklihood of the analog outcome

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I personally don't come to terms with expansion in nothingness simply because nothingness is a miss concept...

Although OT I disagree. Much recent thinking suggests an expanding Universe with nothing outside it: There simply isn’t an outside. I see nothing at all wrong with this. Perhaps you’re imagining “nothingness” as a void but of course that’s wrong because nothingness doesn’t incorporate space. All the space is in the Universe

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@dalehileman,

Quote:

Although OT I disagree. Much recent thinking suggests an expanding Universe with nothing outside it: There simply isn’t an outside. I see nothing at all wrong with this. Perhaps you’re imagining “nothingness” as a void but of course that’s wrong because nothingness doesn’t incorporate space. All the space is in the Universe

Exactly the opposite because nothingness is less then a void space cannot expand or grow...Everythingness sort to speak must be static !
The thing is we experience the arrow of time moving forward and we say space expands but for all that I know all the time/space might well be an ensemble...it just has to be finite or circular...maximum and minimum radius must be established...the way I see it max potential and minimum potential must exist !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

...advise everyone to take the time to see the BBC documentary presented above is well worth it...
(just try to forget or set aside the eye candy dramatic mainstream tone of it...)

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@dalehileman,

dalehileman wrote:

Quote:
honestly hope that packets comes up as the right answer

Rick forgive me for being too lazy to review all four pages but could you explain why the idea of Analog Universe is so depressing

Evolution depressing? I guess it is if you take it seriously. The way I see it is --- wherever you go you will always find fools. You can either laugh at them or be a fool yourself.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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Exactly the opposite because nothingness is less then a void space cannot expand or grow…

Forgive me Al but I don’t understand. Maybe there’s a typo or two, or a missing word somewhere

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Everythingness sort to speak must be static !

That leaves me puzzled also. Is that a way of saying that the Universe isn’t expanding

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The thing is we experience the arrow of time moving forward and we say space expands but for all that I know all the time/space might well be an ensemble

If you mean that time and space are interdependent of course relativity clearly confirms the fact
http://onelook.com/?w=ensemble&ls=a

….but I don’t see how such interaction necessarily impinges upon the question whether they proceed in quantum jumps

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...it just has to be finite or circular...maximum and minimum radius must be established

I’m not sure the Universe, if that’s what you mean can be said to have a “shape” as we know it though I understand that the theory it’s finite entails a definite volume

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...the way I see it max potential and minimum potential must exist !

Sorry Al but a potential for what, and how does this bear on the analog-digital discussion

More and more it appears we might be on different semantical wavelengths

If anyone more into this sort of thing follows Al’s analysis with better comprehension that the Average Clod (me) I hope he might step in and translate for us

Or is he simply pulling my semantic leg

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@Rickoshay75,

Rick forgive me for being too lazy to review all four pages but could you explain why the idea of Analog Universe is so depressing

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Evolution depressing?

Clearly Rick we’re not running on parallel tracks. No not evolution but Al’s notion that if time and space are shown to progress in jumps then the world as we know it would be impossible

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