Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 09:26 am
In another thread,

http://able2know.org/post/edit/p-5008024

…..’way OT yet deserving consideration and hence this OP.
JL asserts:

Quote:
Given an infinite amount of time everything is probable.
Disagree. The only occurrences probable are those possible. Impossible events are infinitely improbable

But as you imply, supposedly anything that can happen, eventually will

…which means, given forever, every possible Universe will happen an infinite number of times. That includes not only he one in which JL chats with Dale at 8:05 a.m. pst but the one identical to it in every way except that one hair on JL’s head is 0.00000001 in., or one quantum unit, longer

Furthermore if the Universe is infinite, there will simultaneously be an infinite number of every possible galaxy. Once in a very long time will occur an instant in which every galaxy will be identical

That my conclusions above are intuitively so absurd suggests there’s something wrong with one or more of our assumptions: (1) The Universe cannot be infinite nor can it exist forever

(2) Our concept of probability—anything that can happen, will—is incorrect
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tsarstepan
 
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Reply Fri 8 Jun, 2012 10:22 am
@dalehileman,
I'm not sure it can be constituted as ironic but your alleged thread link went here:
dalehileman wrote:

Edit Post - Nothing can be destroyed or created
You can't edit this post now


And that's truly revisiting existentialism at its best. Laughing
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jun, 2012 03:44 pm
@tsarstepan,
Well put Tsar, but now how can we interest other participants in the infinite
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Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jun, 2012 04:29 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:
That my conclusions above are intuitively so absurd suggests there’s something wrong with one or more of our assumptions: (1) The Universe cannot be infinite nor can it exist forever

(2) Our concept of probability—anything that can happen, will—is incorrect


I do agree with your point #2. For me that sort of a conclusion, drawn from some tortured and misunderstood 'logic', is very reminiscent of that famous paradox which proves that the missile (bullet, arrow, javelin, whathaveyou) can never hit its mark because there will always be left half of the distance to cover. Very similar thinking involved in claiming that anything that can happen, will.

As for the infinity of the universe and its enternality, I suggest you consult Spinoza. Or, perhaps, al-Kindi.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jun, 2012 05:58 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
I do agree with your point #2. For me that sort of a conclusion, drawn from some tortured and misunderstood 'logic',
It’s not too far off the mark however. Let’s assume that actions proceed in quantum jumps. In that case there are a finite number of possible Universes and if our usual assumption about probability is correct then all possible combinations and permutations of these discrete states will happen

However if the Universe isn’t digital but analog, then yes it’s quite possible that there will never be an exact replication though some Universes or galaxies will be very similar

Quote:
is very reminiscent of that famous paradox which proves that the missile (bullet, arrow, javelin, whathaveyou) can never hit its mark because there will always be left half of the distance to cover.
Zeno’s Paradox I think it’s called

Quote:
Very similar thinking involved in claiming that anything that can happen, will.
I think this paradox has been largely discounted


Quote:
As for the infinity of the universe and its enternality, I suggest you consult Spinoza. Or, perhaps, al-Kindi.
My objection to an infinite Universe, especially one of the quantum persuasion, is that there will simultaneously exist for instance an infinite number of every possible galaxy, a concept the Intuition rejects as absurd

Better is a finite Universe. However even if finite, given forever we should still experience an infinite number of every possible version, it’s just that said repetitions couldn’t happen simultaneously and almost always would be spaced apart in time by a number of years so large we have no way of expressing it

And again, yes, no, I agree that if it’s instead an analog Universe then we won’t have any exact repetitions; but again, we’ll find some very similar to one another; so nearly simnilar that by today’s methods it might be impossible to tell them apart

A finite time span doesn’t solve our problem though because it entails all sorts of paradox and contradiction, the idea for instance of its popping into existence out of nothingness. So again we have to suppose one or more of our assumptions are wrong. My guess is our concept of infinity entails some logical blocks, for instance requiring us to address different “kinds” of infinity progressing at different rates
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