9
   

Nothing can be destroyed or created

 
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2012 04:52 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Quote:
Or by using the same laws of chance the opposite could happen and none of the above would happen.
Can’t agree Rick or else I just don’t understand. Given an infinite number of galaxies all following the same set of rules forever it’s a certainty. In fact, since there’s a probability, however remote, given forever to happen there should also be an infinite number of moments (if indeed you can posit simultaneity at a distance) when all of them are identical
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2012 05:21 pm
@JLNobody,
Given an infinite amount of time, anything that can happen will happen. Smile
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2012 09:23 pm
@Cyracuz,
Obviously it appears that things are destroyed all the time, Indeed, this is what change is all about, and it is ubuiquitous and inevitable. But to treat destruction and change as the same thing is problematical. The OP might be better phrased, Can the total fund of energy in the universe be increased or decreased? To me it seems that when change occurs there is a reorganization or redistribution of energy but the quantum remains the same. But this is only my perception at this moment.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 May, 2012 10:49 pm
@JLNobody,
I share that perception. I seem to recall hearing some physician say something about how matter and energy are interchangeable, but that the sum of the two remain a constant. I will not state it as fact though. I just don't know for sure..
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2012 12:47 pm
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
Given an infinite amount of time, anything that can happen will happen.
Unless there’s something wrong with the usu laws of chance, I’d have to agree. However Intuition for some reason objects strenuously
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2012 02:48 pm
@dalehileman,
This is a matter of simple logic. I would adjust my intuition. Examine the statement; Given an infinite amount of time, anything that can happen will happen. This merely means that every event that can potentially come to pass will happen sooner or later if you just wait long enough.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2012 03:52 pm
@Cyracuz,
Remember the situation of the monkeys typing randomly for an unlimited amount of time and inevitably (or "necessarilly") producing a Shakespearean sonnet?
One effort resulted in "Shall I compare thee to a summer's ****?" "Another said: Shall I compare thee to a summer's xi3th&[email protected]@?
The use of "infinite"here leads us to logical absurdity. Indeed, it shows that logic itself can be absurd, as are our expectations of it.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 10:38 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
if you just wait long enough.
Cyr I absolutely agree, there’s no way ‘round this conclusion so you must somehow have misunderstood me

Furthermore if also the Universe is infinite than at this very moment contrary to strenuous objection of the Intuition there must be an infinite number of galaxies essentially identical in all respects. Thus I am merely acting as Satan’s Representative

As is JL above
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 09:02 pm
@dalehileman,
Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 May, 2012 09:12 pm
@Rickoshay75,
I rather hear about how information or Potential is preserved...not coming to that intuition either by some fancy mathematical explanation or by any metaphysical insight your post falls short of interesting...that said it might be of some consolation that the following few posts I read don't ad anything either...
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2012 03:12 am
@JLNobody,
I do not recall hearing about monkeys typing. But from my own experiences with a keyboard I know it can produce some good results Smile

Quote:
The use of "infinite"here leads us to logical absurdity.


This made me think of how Einstein's relativity breaks down when we approach variables that are infinite. It is perhaps not related, but it shows that both logic and physics that are sound in one area can be absurd if they are pushed beyond their intended limits.


0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2012 09:50 am
@JLNobody,
Quote:
The use of "infinite"here leads us to logical absurdity.
JL I agree but I would have said “intuitional” rather than “logical” since I don’t know of any logic that says infinity is impossible

The same intuitional objection applies to the idea of “forever"; although the idea of beginning or an end to it all leads to all sorts of paradox and contradiction
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2012 10:07 am
@dalehileman,
Absolutes like "infinite" are both logically and intuitionally absurd. The first because carried to its extreme it ends in paradox (like you and Nagarguna note) and my intuitional organ simply shuts down when trying to get a sense of terms like "forever."
At the same time I can't get an intuitive sense of "realities" like time and space either beginning or ending.. The human mind is adequate for purposes of survival but not for establishing metaphysical boundaries.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2012 10:31 am
@JLNobody,
Quote:
Absolutes like "infinite" are both logically and intuitionally absurd.
Again, I’m not so sure about the former

Quote:
The first because carried to its extreme it ends in paradox (like you and Nagarguna note)
It may surprise you Krump to learn—it did me— that my idea of an infinite number of identical galaxies isn’t original. Some of us—very few to be sure—consider the notion logical

Quote:
and my intuitional organ simply shuts down when trying to get a sense of terms like "forever.”
Mine does too and for much the same reason. However the feeling is purely intuitional

Quote:
At the same time I can't get an intuitive sense of "realities" like time and space either beginning or ending..
Agreed and that’s why you can’t counter it with sheer logic

Quote:
The human mind is adequate for purposes of survival but not for establishing metaphysical boundaries.
I’m not so sure about that; Intuition is underrated
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2012 10:49 am
@dalehileman,

JLNobody wrote:
The first because carried to its extreme it ends in paradox (like you and Nagarguna note)


dalehileman wrote:

It may surprise you Krump to learn—it did me— that my idea of an infinite number of identical galaxies isn’t original. Some of us—very few to be sure—consider the notion logical


I wasn't aware that I was JLNobody. Is this true? Or were you just wanting to include me in the conversation? Well since you did say my name (sort of) I might as well chime in, thanks for the invite even if it was not intentional.

I don't believe the universe is infinite, nor do I think there are infinite galaxies. I don't even think there are infinite stars, nor is there infinite atoms of hydrogen, ect. I really don't think infinite exists anywhere except in the minds of mathematicians and people who don't know what infinity is.

Could I be wrong? Sure but I doubt it. If there were an infinite amount of matter in the universe then we have a really huge problem. (I hope someone gets that joke)
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 May, 2012 12:31 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
I wasn't aware that I was JLNobody. Is this true?
You must understand Krum how I’m getting woozy

Quote:
……..thanks for the invite even if it was not intentional.
You’re quite welcome

Quote:
I don't believe the universe is infinite, nor do I think there are infinite galaxies.
I don’t either for the intuitional reasons indicated elsewhere but again I’m only Satan’s proponent

Quote:
Could I be wrong? Sure but I doubt it.
Me too but I might point out that your conclusion is purely intuitional just as mine is

Quote:
If there were an infinite amount of matter in the universe then we have a really huge problem. (I hope someone gets that joke)
In more ways than one
0 Replies
 
Rickoshay75
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2012 05:01 pm
@north,
north wrote:

Rickoshay75 wrote:
dalehileman wrote:
Quote:
given a infinite amount of time, anything is possible.
zD that’s a noteworthy observation but infinity and forever entail suggestions troubling to the intuition. For instance by the laws of chance at any instant there exist an infinite number each of all possible galaxies
Or by using the same laws of chance the opposite could happen and none of the above would happen.


true

and thats what we havn't generally figured out

the Universe has limits



Also possible, but I can't quite see where evolution, the force that eventually produced functional humans, has limits.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 May, 2012 09:12 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Rickoshay75 wrote:
Also possible, but I can't quite see where evolution, the force that eventually produced functional humans, has limits.


I disagree completely. Although the genetic code does have a lot of variations and possible arrangements it is not unlimited. It does have a limit but the number is very big. In fact it is so big, I don't even know, not even sure genetic researchers know how big the possible combinations there are yet. That is what is so great about how DNA is structured. Sure you can see so much variation because there are so many factors in volved, but it is far from infinite.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 May, 2012 10:39 am
@north,
Quote:
true
and thats what we havn't generally figured out
the Universe has limits
hence the chemical periodic table , not all objects can combine
But any that can, will. Given an infinite number of galaxies, supposing they’re all following pretty much the same rules, all considerations of probability aside there would have to be a large, if not infinite, number essentially identical
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 May, 2012 10:42 am
@Rickoshay75,
Quote:
Also possible, but I can't quite see where evolution, the force that eventually produced functional humans, has limits.
I can’t either. In an infinite Megillah given forever every possible outcome of the evolutionarily process should be repeated an infinite number of times
0 Replies
 
 

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