Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

@firefly,

Quote:

There is enough evidence to justify a manlaughter charge.

bullshit

@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
There is enough evidence to justify a manlaughter charge.

bullshit

How would you know?

Zimmerman chased the kid, provoked a fight with him, and shot him to death during that fight. That's textbook manslaughter. He's already admitted that he was specifically told not to follow and confront him, and he did so anyway - and the audio tapes show that he's clearly emotionally upset. I think he's very likely to go to the slammer for this.

And he should, because behaving this way is a big no-no in our society.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

You could do that by outlawing and banning the demoKKKrat party.

Nice to see you showing your true fascist colors gunga.

1 Reply

@parados,

Racist, sexist, fascist.... the list goes on and on.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

gungasnake wrote:
firefly wrote:
There is enough evidence to justify a manlaughter charge.

bullshit

How would you know?

Zimmerman chased the kid, provoked a fight with him, and shot him to death during that fight. That's textbook manslaughter. He's already admitted that he was specifically told not to follow and confront him, and he did so anyway - and the audio tapes show that he's clearly emotionally upset. I think he's very likely to go to the slammer for this.

And he should, because behaving this way is a big no-no in our society.

Cycloptichorn

I know of no evidence that Zimmerman provoked the fight, or even that he confronted Trayvon.

I'm not even sure that there is evidence of him continuing to follow Trayvon after the dispatcher asked him not to.

It's true that provoking a fight and then killing in self defense would be manslaughter, but I'm a little unclear on where the line is drawn when it comes to culpability for provoking a fight.

I suppose the legal question of "where the line is drawn" has a cut and dried answer. I just don't know it. But the question of "what Zimmerman actually did that night" may be unanswerable.

Perhaps it's a good argument for UK-style security cameras everywhere in public spaces. If we had such cameras, there would be no doubt as to what actually happened.

2 Replies

@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

I'm not even sure that there is evidence of him continuing to follow Trayvon after the dispatcher asked him not to.

Oh, please.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

I'm not even sure that there is evidence of him continuing to follow Trayvon after the dispatcher asked him not to.

He admitted to exactly this in the police interview that was done the next day. The tapes were recently released.

I find the testimony of someone who followed and shot a kid to death during a fight to be, yeah. Less than reliable. Character matters as well and Zimmerman had a pretty troubled past, with long-standing problems with the law and apparent anger issues. I am not confident that his testimony will get him off at trial.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Oralloy wrote:

Quote:

Perhaps it's a good argument for UK-style security cameras everywhere in public spaces. If we had such cameras, there would be no doubt as to what actually happened.

Another Conservative comes forward with an idea to further destroy any sense of privacy, all while elsewhere, I'm sure of it, declaims against the oppression of the State.

Joe(♫♪every move you make♫♫♫)Nation

1 Reply

@Joe Nation,

We don't have cameras everywhere. they're usually in places of business or main thoroughfares. There's not likely to be any in housing estates.

Most, if not all, of the cameras in places of business are privately owned anyway.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

I'm sure you're right Izzy, most American think once they watched two episodes of The Prisoner, they know what it's like in the U.K.

I'm a hypocrite about the subject.
I want the images at my bank ATM to be crystal clear. I love the fact that we caught the Times Square Bomber through the use of cameras. I like the fact that I, as Board President, can reveiw the video from the roof deck and find out who left the huge mess on the tables last Saturday night.
I hate being watched.

Here's the rest of the city: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/05/big_apple_is_watching_you.html

Joe(<sigh>)Nation

1 Reply

@Joe Nation,

It's something that's crept up on us. Most people aren't that bothered, as it's used responsibly. It made sure that the police officer who struck Ian Tomlinson is now being tried for manslaughter, so it cuts both ways.

What has caused a bit of outrage is the Google Earth cameras photographing and publishing everything. They caught one guy coming out of a sex shop. That's not an image you'd want keeping for posterity.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I'm not even sure that there is evidence of him continuing to follow Trayvon after the dispatcher asked him not to.

He admitted to exactly this in the police interview that was done the next day. The tapes were recently released.

I thought he said he got out of his truck and was hunting for a home address to relay to the police so they could get to his position, and then Trayvon assaulted him from out of the blue.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I find the testimony of someone who followed and shot a kid to death during a fight to be, yeah. Less than reliable. Character matters as well and Zimmerman had a pretty troubled past, with long-standing problems with the law and apparent anger issues. I am not confident that his testimony will get him off at trial.

Cycloptichorn

Nevermind his testimony, what evidence is there to prove his guilt?

Have we become Italy where you are presumed guilty and need to prove yourself innocent?

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

oralloy wrote:
I'm not even sure that there is evidence of him continuing to follow Trayvon after the dispatcher asked him not to.

Oh, please.

Well, is there such evidence?

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Why don't you go read some of the articles on the incident? Or even go back a few pages?

Yes, there is evidence that he continued to follow Trayvon after the 911 operator suggested that he not do so.

Zimmerman has confessed to shooting Trayvon, so there is evidence of a crime.

Zimmerman, having confessed to the shooting, now bears the burden to show that the shooting was justified if he wants to avoid jail time.

The prosecution will have to convince a jury of Zimmerman's state of mind in order to convict on Second Degree Murder, but Florida law allows for the jury to convict on lesser charges.

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

The suggestion was not a lawful order, and is irrelavent no matter how the state trys to spin Zimmermans refusal to follow it into depraved indifference.

You don't want the law to make suggestions lawful orders either...for instace how many times a week do our presidents suggest behaviour that they want to see out of US citzens??? Do you REALLY want to give them the force of law?

2 Replies

@hawkeye10,

I don't believe anyone here, at least recently, has suggested it was an "order," lawful or not.

"Asked him not to" was the phrase we just used, if I'm not mistaken.

Your overwrought screeching is getting tiresome.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Why don't you go read some of the articles on the incident? Or even go back a few pages?

I've read a few. Although I admit I am not following this extremely closely.

I'm pretty sure I've read that Zimmerman says he stopped pursuing Trayvon, and was merely trying to find a street address to relay his position to the police when Trayvon assaulted him.

DrewDad wrote:

Yes, there is evidence that he continued to follow Trayvon after the 911 operator suggested that he not do so.

What is this evidence?

DrewDad wrote:

Zimmerman has confessed to shooting Trayvon, so there is evidence of a crime.

Not really. There was a shooting, yes. But where is the evidence that the shooting was a crime?

DrewDad wrote:

Zimmerman, having confessed to the shooting, now bears the burden to show that the shooting was justified if he wants to avoid jail time.

When did we abandon "innocent until proven guilty" and adopt "guilty until proven innocent"?

DrewDad wrote:

The prosecution will have to convince a jury of Zimmerman's state of mind in order to convict on Second Degree Murder, but Florida law allows for the jury to convict on lesser charges.

I've heard of Florida cases where the jury was not allowed to convict on lesser charges.

I tried to find out exactly how it works in Florida, whether it is up to the prosecutor in each case, or what, but I couldn't find anything.

0 Replies

@oralloy,

Quote:

Nevermind his testimony, what evidence is there to prove his guilt?

He shot the kid to death. That's a fact - not even in question by anyone. So, there's no real relation to your Italy obsession.

I think when you are caught with a kid that you just shot to death, and you followed him (look up the transcript - he admits that the cops told him not to follow him but he did anyway) and confronted him, there isn't a presumption that you are innocent in the same way as if you aren't caught at the scene with a gun that had recently been used to shoot someone.

The concept that Martin spontaneously assaulted him pretty ludicrous.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Linked from Drudge, i.e. visible to some 50M viewers a day or whatever it is...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/george-zimmerman-lie-detector-421395

Quote:

George Zimmerman Passed Police Lie Detector Test Day After Trayvon Martin Killing

A day after killing Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman passed a police lie detector test when asked if he confronted the teenager and whether he feared for his life “when you shot the guy,” according to documents released today by Florida prosecutors.

According to a “confidential report” prepared by the Sanford Police Department, Zimmerman, 28, willingly submitted to a computer voice stress analyzer (CVSA) “truth verification” on February 27. Investigators concluded that he “has told substantially the complete truth in regards to this examination.”

Zimmerman, the report noted, “was classified as No Deception Indicated (NDI).”

Along with questions about whether his first name was George and if it was Monday, Zimmerman was asked, “Did you confront the guy you shot?’ He answered, “No.” He was also asked, “Were you in fear for your life, when you shot the guy.” Zimmerman replied, “Yes.”

Before the CVSA test, Zimmerman--who was apparently not accompanied by legal counsel--signed a Sanford Police Department release stating that he was undergoing the examination “voluntarily, without duress, coercion, threat or promise.”

The lie detector test was requested by Chris Serino, a homicide investigator with the Sanford Police Department.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

The suggestion was not a lawful order, and is irrelavent no matter how the state trys to spin Zimmermans refusal to follow it into depraved indifference.

That is true too. But I also haven't seen any evidence that Zimmerman refused to comply with the dispatcher's suggestion.

1 Reply

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

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