45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 12:16 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
David I carry a very high power stun gun so under similar situations I could used that to stop an attack of that nature instead of the deadly force of a firearm.

Too bad Zimmerman did not do the same.
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 12:19 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
To me if Zimmerman was seeking a confrontation verbal or otherwise he would not had try to get the police on the scene by calling 911 many times.


I agree that if Zimmerman intended to do something illegal (e.g. murder) he would likely not be calling 911 but if he thought he was just tracking a burglar and wanted to keep the "suspect" till the police arrived then it is entirely plausible that he would call 911.

Quote:
If Trayvon had been worry and concern about the man following him he could had call 911 himself something he did not do.


So? That doesn't mean anything. I have been in a few fights and in none of them was a 911 call involved. Not all fights unravel with a nice clear time when a 911 call is appropriate.

Now you may say that it was here, because he was reportedly using his phone talking to his girlfriend but that happened to me once in Brazil and I had no time to call the police either. Just a "gotta go, about to be attacked" (a band of soccer hooligans, I was in front of their stadium on game day wearing the wrong logos). The girlfriend reported that the call cut off suddenly so this could merely mean that Martin did not have time to make a 911 call.

Quote:
To me it is likely his being a kid without adult judgment had gotten mad at Zimmerman following him and turn and attack Zimmerman.


It certainly could be, but why does it seem that way to you.

Quote:
In any case if Zimmerman was the assault victim my sympathy is with him not his attacker.


It may well be that it was self-defense, but even so the guy made a series of questionable decisions that cost a life. What if Martins did attack him, but did so because he was scared? Some guy's following you around in a car and gets out on foot. Even if Martin attacked Zimmerman Zimmerman's actions contributed greatly to the scenario and even if Martin is at fault for starting a fist fight he was just a kid on his way back from the store and wasn't looking for this trouble. Even if this was self-defense Zimmerman owes a huge apology for his initial mistake (false positive suspect) that led to a series of events where the kid lost his life.

Even if it was legal self defense Martin would deserve our sympathy. If he attacked Zimmerman he might have been in error but it would have been an error in reaction to Zimmerman's.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 12:23 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
David I carry a very high power stun gun so under similar situations I could used that to stop an attack of that nature instead of the deadly force of a firearm.

Too bad Zimmerman did not do the same.
The results of hand-to-hand combat r never predictable.
No one can know what the enemy will allow him to use,
in the chaos of the struggle.

Just carrying guns, is enuf of a struggle
without carrying bulky contraptions uphill and downdale.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 12:38 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
This is the lie that Zimmerman has been telling and which the Prosecution will show, by means of the evidence, that he was, in fact, not retreating to his vehicle at any point in time during the night in question.


I find that statement suspect as well but wonder why you seem so sure it's a lie (not saying you are wrong for seeming sure, we are all guessing and how sure you wanna rate your guess is fine with me).

The only reason I think it's suspect is because I think that it sounds like something he might add after-the-fact to try to minimize his liability and it also seems less likely a point for a confrontation to start than something more along the lines of a "hey what are you doing in this neighborhood" getting it started.

Thing is, even if that was a lie I still don't think that breaks the self-defense defense. Certainly wouldn't help it and would call into question his honesty on other matters but even if that was not true and Zimmerman walked up to Martin and verbally confronted him it can still be a case of self-defense (not saying that it was, just saying that I don't see the case revolving around this claim as much as you seem to).
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 12:47 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I was surprised as well. I would have guessed manslaughter would be appropriate.
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 01:01 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

It may well be that it was self-defense, but even so the guy made a series of questionable decisions that cost a life. What if Martins did attack him, but did so because he was scared? Some guy's following you around in a car and gets out on foot. Even if Martin attacked Zimmerman Zimmerman's actions contributed greatly to the scenario and even if Martin is at fault for starting a fist fight he was just a kid on his way back from the store and wasn't looking for this trouble. Even if this was self-defense Zimmerman owes a huge apology for his initial mistake (false positive suspect) that led to a series of events where the kid lost his life.

Even if it was legal self defense Martin would deserve our sympathy. If he attacked Zimmerman he might have been in error but it would have been an error in reaction to Zimmerman's.


Just gonna nod my head on this one.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 01:14 pm
@FreeDuck,
Quote:
I was surprised as well. I would have guessed manslaughter would be appropriate


They seems to almost always overcharge hoping to used the overcharge to force a plea bargain.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 01:16 pm
Ok after reading everyone else's posts I realized I should expand on my thoughts. They are more or less in line with Soz and Robert. I think Zimmerman used incredibly bad judgment, that he did follow the kid, that words were exchanged and that aggression turned into violence. I don't know which one became physical first but I imagine it might have started with shoving and not punching. I think Trayvon got the upper hand. I have doubts that Zimmerman shot Trayvon while he was on top of him -- early witness reports said they were separated on the ground at one point and I think it unlikely that someone who's hands were free enough to retrieve their gun and fire it could not also free himself. I think it more likely that Zimmerman, because he had a gun, thought Trayvon did too and shot him out of fear. If that's the case physical evidence will show that he wasn't shot at close range.

All of that is just speculation, of course. Ultimately, IMO, Zimmerman is responsible for his death because he introduced the lethal element that otherwise would not have been there. And knowing that he carried a gun he should have been that much more cautious about following the kid. That may be why the prosecutor charged murder.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 01:51 pm
@FreeDuck,
I can tell that carrying a gun is normally an inhibiting factor. All else aside, if you get into a skirmish while carrying, it is all too likely that Ol' Betsy will become dislodged and end up clattering around on the ground.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 01:55 pm
@FreeDuck,
Sorry as a gun carrying person when I am arm I go out of my way to not get into any kind of conflict and in fact must more so then when I am not arm.

If Zimmerman was looking for a conflict once more he would not had been calling the police over and over.

I also never just assume that any other persons is arm it does not work that way.

Never been into a fight when carrying a firearm thank god however I did had a woman get into my face over my bumping into her car with a shopping cart and she told me that she was going to kill me in fact follow me home and kill me!!!!

I just stood there and let her wind down hoping like hell she would not pull a knife or a gun and force me to decide how to response in a fraction of a second with both of our lives hanging in the balance.

boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 02:31 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
If Zimmerman was looking for a conflict once more he would not had been calling the police over and over.


He called 911 once that day, not over and over.

But he had called 911 a lot in the past, often to report any black people in the neighborhood: http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/trayvon-shooters-911-calls-potholes-piles-trash-black-men

It seems to me that he was looking for a confrontation the minute he said "these assholes always get away with it" and got out of his car. I doubt he ever intended to head back to his car because he told the 911 operator that the police would have to call him back to find out where he was.

I don't think he intended to kill Martin but I do think he intended to confront him.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 02:38 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:


Thing is, even if that was a lie I still don't think that breaks the self-defense defense. Certainly wouldn't help it and would call into question his honesty on other matters but even if that was not true and Zimmerman walked up to Martin and verbally confronted him it can still be a case of self-defense (not saying that it was, just saying that I don't see the case revolving around this claim as much as you seem to).


Mmm, I dunno. If you start a confrontation, and it leads to you killing someone, it's really tough to claim that it was in self-defense.

I think much of this will rest on witness testimony.

As to the original question, I think it highly likely that Zimm will get ran up on aggravated assault and manslaughter - the murder 2 charge was probably never intended to be the real goal. The goal is to get him to plea out to manslaughter if the trial looks like it's going to go against him.

Cycloptichorn
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:18 pm
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/abc-news-photo-taken-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-2315849.html

Seminole County — ABC News exclusively obtained a graphic photograph of George Zimmerman’s head covered in blood that was taken just three minutes after the shooting that left 17-year-old Trayvon Martin dead.

The picture shows two cuts on the back of Zimmerman's head with blood trickling down.

Click here to see the photo (WARNING GRAPHIC)

Zimmerman, who shot and killed 17-year-old Martin on February 26 in a gated Sanford community, claimed he killed Martin in self-defense. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder for the shooting death of Martin.

The photograph appears to be the first publicly disclosed piece of evidence that could help support Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. Sources tell ABC News that investigators have seen the photograph and are aware of the photographer’s story.

The person who took the photograph told ABC News he heard Martin and Zimmerman fighting before the shooting and that after Martin was killed, Zimmerman asked the photographer to call Zimmerman’s wife, allegedly blurting out, “Man, just tell her I shot someone.”

GPS and other data embedded in the photo shows it was taken at the scene with an iPhone just three minutes after the shooting, according to ABC News.




http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/img/photos/2012/04/20/b2/9e/gimmerman_head_1_t615.jpg?9d74a679772b302cd354e1e6e54b2855e904d640
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Mmm, I dunno. If you start a confrontation, and it leads to you killing someone, it's really tough to claim that it was in self-defense.


Depends on what you mean by the confrontation. If Zimmerman just ran up to the guy and said "who are you and what are you doing here?" or some such and then Martin punched him out and started pounding his head on the ground then it might be legitimate self-defense. And even then he may want to strengthen his case for it by lying about retreating. Not saying that is what happened, just that even if he hadn't actually been retreating to his vehicle that doesn't necessarily mean he initiated the physical confrontation etc.

Basically, I don't see that as being the as big a key to the self-defense claim as Joe appears to but I have my doubts about that specific claim as well and it could certainly be a way that his story starts coming apart if he's lying about it. So I'm wondering what Joe's reasoning was for highlighting that with lots of conviction (i.e. is there anything in the grapevine about that?).
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:32 pm
My view is simple: I don't see it coming down as second degree murder, though I may be in for a surprise re evidence. I have my own accumulated angst/bias that we had an active cop wannabee doing a number, but I don't know that.

I don't see it coming down to nothing, for reasons well explained by many at length already, if those pan out. I see it as ending up as manslaughter.

I said early on that I don't know Zimmerman's heart, and then I meant it about whether or not he was/is racist. I also don't know his heart and mind at the continuous time he was acting, and am hoping evidence will help make that clearer.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:48 pm
@FreeDuck,
Quote:
I think Zimmerman used incredibly bad judgment, that he did follow the kid, that words were exchanged and that aggression turned into violence...And knowing that he carried a gun he should have been that much more cautious about following the kid

Given your scenario, the gun is probably what made him feel empowered enough to follow, or provoke, or confront, the teen. He may have been "playing cop". Had he not been armed, he probably would have just called the police and let them investigate whether Trayvon was doing anything illegal or suspicious.

I agree with your thinking that Zimmerman probably used incredibly bad judgment and that had very tragic consequences. Just continuing to stare at Trayvon, and/or follow him, might have provoked a confrontational or aggressive reaction to Zimmerman on Trayvon's part. One of the two seems to have overreacted to the entire situation, and escalated it into violence, but the question is which one?

I don't think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder. In fact, the affidavit of probable cause may be dismissed before trial if the judge feels this was justifiable homicide, based on self defense, and that the criminal charge is not adequately supported by the evidence.

I think Alan Dershowitz may be correct in his appraisal of the affidavit of probable cause.
Quote:
“You’ve seen the affidavit of probable cause. What do you make of it,” Smerconish asked. “It won’t suffice,” Dershowitz replied without hesitation.

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”

Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz.

Dershowitz went on to strongly criticize Corey’s decision to move forward with the case against Zimmerman. “I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and overcharged. This case will not – if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.”

Smerconish identified the total lack of any mention of the supposed fight that occurred between Martin and Zimmerman prior to Martin being shot. He said he was disappointed that he did not see any mention of that conflict that led to Martin’s murder.

“But it’s worse than that,” said Dershowitz. “It’s irresponsible and unethical in not including material that favors the defendant.”

“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”...

Legal experts said Corey chose a tough route with the murder charge, which could send Zimmerman to prison for life if he’s convicted, over manslaughter, which usually carries 15-year prison terms and covers reckless or negligent killings. The prosecutors must prove Zimmerman’s shooting of Martin was rooted in hatred or ill will and counter his claims that he shot Martin to protect himself while patrolling his gated community in the Orlando suburb of Sanford. Zimmerman’s lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence — a relatively low legal standard — that he acted in self-defense at a pretrial hearing to prevent the case from going to trial. There’s a “high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case,” Florida defense attorney Richard Hornsby said.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/dershowitz-zimmerman-arrest-affidavit-irresponsible-and-unethical/

So, maybe this won't even get to trial.



Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 03:56 pm
I don't see any reason to say that Zimmerman is lying, only that he's not a reliable witness.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 04:01 pm
@firefly,
Molto interessante.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 04:27 pm
i must admit that all i know about zimmerman i learned from reading his writings

Up on Housing Project Hill
It's either fortune or fame
You must pick up one or the other
Though neither of them are to be what they claim
If you're lookin' to get silly
You better go back to from where you came
Because the cops don't need you
And man they expect the same.
Now all the authorities
They just stand around and boast
How they blackmailed the sergeant-at-arms
Into leaving his post
And picking up Angel who
Just arrived here from the coast
Who looked so fine at first
But left looking just like a ghost.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Apr, 2012 04:42 pm
@Robert Gentel,
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/second-degree-murder-definition.html

Quote:
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.

For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. At a stoplight the next day, Dan sees Victor riding in the passenger seat of a nearby car. Dan pulls out a gun and fires three shots into the car, missing Victor but killing the driver of the car.


Seems appropriate, to me.

0 Replies
 
 

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