45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 08:36 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
A judge says he lied. That's good enough for me.


What's "good enough for you" has little to do with either justice or reality.



DrewDad wrote:
Waving your hands in the air doesn't change history.


I have no desire to change history. And I'll leave the hand waving, whatever that is, to you.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 08:39 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The suggestions that Zimmerman lied are a bit overblown.


The judge who revoked his original bail and had him re-incarcerated didn't think so.


The judge who was bounced from the case because of his bias?



firefly wrote:
The assets existed--Zimmerman and his wife lied about not having them, and they let their lawyer misrepresent their financial situation to the court because they lied to him too.


You have no proof that the statements were lies as opposed to an honest mistake.



firefly wrote:
The prosecution has the taped phone conversations between Zimmerman and his wife discussing the transfer of their assets between accounts and they have the bank records as well.


No. The prosecution has what they claim is such. That does not mean the evidence really says what the prosecution claims.



firefly wrote:
And Zimmerman's wife still faces perjury charges for lying in court


Piling on charges against anyone associated with the defendant, is something that is often done when there is an attempt to railroad an innocent person.



firefly wrote:
and given the fact that she did attempt to conceal the assets, with the collusion of her husband, and they have bank records as evidence of that, that will be a tough charge for her to beat.


And who says that is a fact?



firefly wrote:
Zimmerman and his wife are both liars.


You sure like to claim things you can't prove, in your efforts to demonize people who might be innocent.



firefly wrote:
Zimmerman destroyed his credibility when he lied about his assets.


Aside from the fact that your claim he lied is a bit overblown, no. Even if he did lie in a moment of weakness, that would not destroy his credibility.



firefly wrote:
That's probably why donations to his defense fund dried up.


More likely he just faces huge expenses because he is being maliciously exposed to vigilantes, and needs to protect himself.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 08:40 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
In the context of depraved heart murder, the term "depraved mind" refers to callously doing something that you know has a very high risk of accidentally killing someone.


http://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depravity-of-mind/
Nothing about your claim in the legal definition.


I disagree. That definition does a good job of describing the callous attitude that I referred to.



parados wrote:
The 2nd degree murder charge is going to come down to whether a jury thinks Zimmerman acted recklessly to put himself in the situation.


Not unless they totally ignore the meaning of second degree murder and make up their own definition.

They could end up doing that, but it would hardly be justice.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 08:47 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
But Zimmerman did have a reason. He was in fear for his life. Therefore he was not callously gambling with Trayvon's life for no reason.


That's funny. Do you have evidence to support this?


Yes. There are a number of witnesses who say that the two were actually fighting before the shot rang out.

There is no doubt that this happened in the context of a fight, as opposed to some cold-blooded attempt to gamble with Trayvon's life.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:40 pm
@oralloy,
It's pretty well documented that he and his wife deliberately misled the court.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:49 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Yes, if Zimmerman had shot Trayvon in the chest for no reason, knowing that he was in no danger from Trayvon, that would count as callously gambling with Trayvon's life.

But Zimmerman did have a reason. He was in fear for his life. Therefore he was not callously gambling with Trayvon's life for no reason.


Zimmerman's reasons are irrelevant to the fact that he put Trayvon Martin's life in imminent danger, and chanced ending that life, when he shot him in the chest at close range. His reasons for doing so may affect his legal culpability for the act, but they don't change the fact that he acted in a way that caused the death of Trayvon Martin--it is a fact that he killed Trayvon Martin.

Either Zimmerman was acting in legally justifiable self-defense, or he wasn't, when he pulled that trigger--and that has nothing to do with "gambling", callously or otherwise, with someone's life, it is really a separate issue.


No. When the charge in question is that he callously gambled with Trayvon's life, that is not a separate issue. It is the main issue.



firefly wrote:
He shot and killed an unarmed minor--a minor who had a right to be in the area, and a minor who was not engaging in any criminal activity prior to his encounter with Zimmerman. Zimmerman claims this unarmed minor attacked him and he had to shoot him in defense of his own life.

The state can attack Zimmerman's claim of self defense based on his inconsistent statements and accounts of events, and/or on the basis of additional evidence that contradicts his assertions--and they will likely do both of those things.


And, if they manage to do so, that would justify a manslaughter charge, not second degree murder.



firefly wrote:
The state is not required to present any sort of motive for Zimmerman's actions.


If they want to prove second degree murder, they will need to prove that he was not firing out of fear for his life, but rather that he fired for no reason, when he did not fear his life was in danger.



firefly wrote:
So, the state must do two things. First they must attack and discredit his claim of self-defense, and secondly they must try to prove he commited the crime of second degree murder by connecting his behavior to the elements of second degree murder exactly as that crime is defined by Florida law.


Elements that include proving that he callously gambled with Trayvon's life, as opposed to firing out of fear for his life.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:51 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Nothing ridiculous or absurd about pointing out reality.


What's ridiculous and absurd are your denials of reality.


No such denials. I make a point of supporting reality.



firefly wrote:
Like your stating that "the suggestions" that Zimmerman lied about his assets and financial state are "overblown".


Well, they are.



firefly wrote:
There is substantial evidence--physical evidence, like taped phone conversations, and bank records, that confirm the facts that he not only lied about his assets, he colluded with his wife to conceal them by transferring them to other accounts.


So says the prosecution. It is yet to be determined that the evidence is really what they claim.



firefly wrote:
Even his poor lawyer, who Zimmerman also lied to, had to go into court and admit to the judge that his client had lied.


Actually the lawyer said that the claims that Zimmerman was engaging in some conspiracy with his wife to deceive the court, were overblown.



firefly wrote:
Are you still going to contend that Zimmerman didn't lie, or that "suggestions" of his lying have been "overblown"?


The latter.

It is also possible that Zimmerman did not lie, but I do not have enough evidence to conclude either way at the moment.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 09:51 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Judge denies George Zimmerman request to delay trial in Trayvon Martin case

Quote:
George Zimmerman's attorneys presented a motion Tuesday asking Judge Debra Nelson to push the trial from mid-June back to November because they say the prosecutor has been slow to turn over needed evidence. The state attorney has denied the accusation.

Nelson denied the motion and said the trial will begin on June 10.


Illegally withholding evidence from the defense is a key sign that an innocent person is being railroaded.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 5 Feb, 2013 10:37 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
It's pretty well documented that he and his wife deliberately misled the court.


We have the prosecution's narrative describing such actions, and we have their claims that certain evidence supports their narrative.

But that does not mean the evidence is as strong as the prosecution claims. And it does not mean their narrative is correct even if their description of the evidence is accurate.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 08:57 am
@oralloy,
Does that mean the suggestion wasn't overblown since you have now conceded the claim may or may not be overblown?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:11 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
We have the prosecution's narrative describing such actions, and we have their claims that certain evidence supports their narrative.

But that does not mean the evidence is as strong as the prosecution claims. And it does not mean their narrative is correct even if their description of the evidence is accurate.

Actually, we have the evidence itself. It was made public.

And we also have the defense attorney that concedes the facts are as alleged by the prosecutor.
Quote:
"There's no question that they were talking in this sort of simplistic kind of code, where they were talking about $155 when, without question, they were talking about $155,000," O'Mara told CNN's Piers Morgan on Monday night.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:12 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

DrewDad wrote:
It's pretty well documented that he and his wife deliberately misled the court.


We have the prosecution's narrative describing such actions, and we have their claims that certain evidence supports their narrative.

But that does not mean the evidence is as strong as the prosecution claims. And it does not mean their narrative is correct even if their description of the evidence is accurate.

Except, you know, that Zimmerman's on the record accepting responsibility for misleading the judge.



parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:15 am
@DrewDad,
But....
Zimmerman obviously lied to the court about lying to the court. That's the only way Oralloy could be right about Zimmerman not lying to the court.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 10:29 am
@parados,
Right. And then you can't take responsibility for something that never happened, so the whole argument collapses in a puff of something out of Orally's ass....
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 02:25 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

But....
Zimmerman obviously lied to the court about lying to the court. That's the only way Oralloy could be right about Zimmerman not lying to the court.


Given the defense and judge misconduct that zimmerman has suffered he should get a pass for that misdeed. If it turns out that there was state misconduct as well he should get a walk.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 02:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
Zimmerman should get a pass for his misdeeds because he (the defense) made misdeeds? How does that work hawkeye?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:49 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Does that mean the suggestion wasn't overblown since you have now conceded the claim may or may not be overblown?


I have conceded no such thing.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:50 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
We have the prosecution's narrative describing such actions, and we have their claims that certain evidence supports their narrative.

But that does not mean the evidence is as strong as the prosecution claims. And it does not mean their narrative is correct even if their description of the evidence is accurate.


Actually, we have the evidence itself. It was made public.

And we also have the defense attorney that concedes the facts are as alleged by the prosecutor.

Quote:
"There's no question that they were talking in this sort of simplistic kind of code, where they were talking about $155 when, without question, they were talking about $155,000," O'Mara told CNN's Piers Morgan on Monday night.


That does not mean that the evidence released to the public was the full story, or that the prosecution narrative is correct.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:52 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
oralloy wrote:
DrewDad wrote:
It's pretty well documented that he and his wife deliberately misled the court.


We have the prosecution's narrative describing such actions, and we have their claims that certain evidence supports their narrative.

But that does not mean the evidence is as strong as the prosecution claims. And it does not mean their narrative is correct even if their description of the evidence is accurate.


Except, you know, that Zimmerman's on the record accepting responsibility for misleading the judge.


Sometimes innocent people get bullied into admitting things that aren't true.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Feb, 2013 09:53 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
But....
Zimmerman obviously lied to the court about lying to the court. That's the only way Oralloy could be right about Zimmerman not lying to the court.


This is growing even more Orwellian.

Look, I am immune to this lynch mob mentality you're pushing. I'm just never going to go there. I'm not even capable of it.


Also, I never said he didn't lie to the court. I said that it wasn't clear to me whether he did or not.

And I said that even if he did lie in a moment of weakness, the prosecution narrative about that lie was over the top.


The only thing about this case that is truly clear is: there is no way this could ever amount to second degree murder.

And even with a manslaughter charge, I'd want to see a good explanation from the prosecution as to how the shooting took place in nearly the exact location where he was advised that they didn't need him to pursue, three minutes earlier.
 

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