45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 11:45 am
@parados,
Quote:
First offense, extenuating circumstances mean at most it will be probably result in time served, a fine and probation

What "extenuating circumstances"? Did she have a sudden bout of amnesia when she testified to the judge? Had she forgotten about all that money she transferred between accounts?

Our justice system depends, to a large degree, on individuals being truthful when they testify under oath. What, in the law, justifies, or excuses, lying, under oath, to a judge?

Shellie Zimmerman might receive probation and a fine, then again she might not. She is appropriately charged with perjury, not as a misdemeanor, but as a felony, because she allegedly lied at an official proceeding. The more serious nature of the charge may well carry jail time if she is convicted. Particularly in such a high profile case, there may be a compelling need for the state to send a clear message about the unacceptability of lying under oath, and just giving her probation might not do that. And they might not want to offer her a plea deal, to a lesser charge, for the same reason.

I think we'll just have to wait and see how the case with Mrs Zimmerman plays out. But I think that she might well wind up doing some jail time.

As far as giving her "time served", she was only incarcerated for a few hours before posting bail, so that would be like just giving her probation.

parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 11:48 am
@firefly,
Quote:

As far as giving her "time served", she was only incarcerated for a few hours before posting bail, so that would be like just giving her probation.

Yeah? And? That's the way it almost always works.


You are free to be angry and dislike the Zimmermans all you want firefly but the courts won't work that way.
snood
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 12:50 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:

As far as giving her "time served", she was only incarcerated for a few hours before posting bail, so that would be like just giving her probation.

Yeah? And? That's the way it almost always works.


You are free to be angry and dislike the Zimmermans all you want firefly but the courts won't work that way.


I'm kinda interested what circumstances you think might be extenuating re: her lying under oath to the judge.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 01:02 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The same husband who killed an unarmed kid who may have been trying to protect himself from this overzealous wannabe cop who had been stalking him?


They say ignorance is bliss and you must be blissful to the point of delirium.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 02:55 pm
@firefly,
The mob was the media the the race baiters such as yourself who still insist this was about race and the purposeful
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 09:02 pm
@parados,
Quote:
You are free to be angry and dislike the Zimmermans all you want firefly...

I'm not angry, nor do I dislike the Zimmermans. I really feel no particular emotion toward them or even to the topic of this thread.

I think that intentionally lying to a judge during a hearing is egregious behavior, and that certainly raises questions in my mind about Mrs Zimmerman's character, but the woman herself is also of very little interest to me, and really so is her husband.

I think that neither of them is particularly bright if they believed they could successfully mislead the court, and the prosecutor, about their financial assets, and they apparently never adequately considered the serious consequences if their birdbrained perjury conspiracy was discovered--even if she doesn't get jail time, she may well wind up with a felony conviction, and they damaged his credibility in a case where his defense hinges on his credibility. They both have lousy judgment.

And, since they had the money to post his bail, what they did by trying to hide their assets was just plain incredibly stupid. So now they'll both have to deal with the consequences of their intentionally deceptive actions. As if they didn't have enough problems...

I'm mainly interested in watching the legal issues play out, both in her case and his, although I really have no personal interest in either of these people, or what happens to either of them--my interest is in the legal process in a case that's generated such media attention and scrutiny, and watching that legal process both struggle with being under such a high-powered media microscope and, at the same time, trying to use that attention to benefit one side or the other.

Shellie Zimmerman's perjury charge, and her husband's now tarnished credibility, is just another twist in the larger legal drama involving her husband's criminal case. It's an interesting and complex drama, but, so far, not one that generates much, if any, personal emotion for me.




hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 10:20 pm
@firefly,
Oh please, you practically foam at the mouth when you expound upon your theory that we will see here the state stomp on another citizen. There is a good chance that this is better than sex for you.
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2012 12:01 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Oh please, you practically foam at the mouth when you expound upon your theory that we will see here the state stomp on another citizen. There is a good chance that this is better than sex for you.

You're obviously talking about yourself, not me.

You're the one who gets off on sadism, and, in thread after thread, you never stop talking about how the state stomps on, and hammers, and pounds, citizens--you love thinking about that stuff--you rather primitively conceptualize the entire criminal justice system in terms of BDSM imagery.

And that also explains why you never can understand the real legal issues or bother to acquaint yourself with any actual laws.Laughing





.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Jun, 2012 12:06 am
Quote:
In court, at least, it appears Zimmerman is being treated like anyone else
By Sue Carlton, Times Columnist
Friday, June 15, 2012

Are prosecutors, a judge and a justice system picking on George Zimmerman? And now his wife?

Even before his trial, is one of the most famous defendants in America getting a fair shake?

The neighborhood watch volunteer who shot an unarmed teenager and ignited a national debate about race, self-defense and the law finds himself back in jail. And his wife is charged with perjury for lying about family finances at his bail hearing — all before we're anywhere near a trial in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.

By now, there's plenty of opinion as to what happened between two strangers in a gated neighborhood on a rainy night in Sanford.

There's this: A teenager just walking home from a convenience store was targeted by Zimmerman because he was black and ended up dead.

Or: Zimmerman was within his rights — and the law — when he fired his gun because Martin confronted Zimmerman about following him and was beating him.

With all that out there and all this case has become, is it being handled by the justice system like any other?

Can it be?

Having witnessed many judges over the years (including one with a tendency to snap pencils in half when he was not happy) I can tell you they really, really do not like to be lied to. They take that whole-truth-and-nothing-but business very seriously, particularly when a ruling they make is based on the information provided.

Like thousands of defendants similarly awaiting trial, Zimmerman was granted a bail amount based in part on how much money he can reasonably come up with. That question is what landed both him and his wife in pretrial trouble.

At her husband's bail hearing, Shellie Zimmerman said under oath she wasn't "aware of" any money she and her husband had. But prosecutors later said recorded jailhouse phone calls between them showed she was quite aware of more than $100,000 raised for his defense. They also accuse her of moving nearly $75,000 from his account to hers in small amounts.

Enter the judge with the colorful: "Does (Zimmerman) get to sit there like a potted plant and lead the court down the primrose path?"

Apparently not. Bail revoked, and Mrs. Zimmerman later charged with perjury.

I don't love the idea of recording jailhouse calls between inmates and their friends and families, but it is done, and not just to George Zimmerman. (At the Hillsborough Jail they put up signs that essentially say: Hey, we're listening in, so you might not want to incriminate yourself.)

So no, not a big surprise to see a perjury charge and bail revoked — nor to see another bail hearing set for June 29. And no surprise if he gets out, if at a higher amount. That's how it works.

So far, at least, it looks like Zimmerman is being treated as much like an ordinary defendant as possible.

Given the intense interest, probably no detail of this case will be overlooked, and no move by any of the players left unscrutinized. Hopefully, that also means no corners cut, and everything by the book all the way to trial.

Because if we've learned anything from what happened that night, and afterward, and what it says about where we are in the world when it comes to race and the law, it's that we really need to get this one right.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/in-court-at-least-it-appears-zimmerman-is-being-treated-like-anyone-else/1235399
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 09:59 am
From the New York Times today (the 21st of June)
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/us/documents-tell-zimmermans-side-in-martin-shooting.html?_r=1&hpw

Quote:
Documents Tell Zimmerman’s Side in Martin Shooting

MIAMI – The legal team for George Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin, has released Mr. Zimmerman's written statement and several audio and video interviews with investigators, in which Mr. Zimmerman says he was ambushed and then attacked so violently by Mr. Martin that this head “felt like it was going explode” and that the teenager had covered his nose and mouth before reaching for Mr. Zimmerman’s firearm.

The material represents the first time that the public has had the opportunity to hear Mr. Zimmerman’s initial statements to the police about the shooting of Mr. Martin, an unarmed 17-year-old African-American.

Mr. Martin’s death on Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla., and the decision by the local police not to immediately bring charges against Mr. Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, set off a national outcry about race and Florida's self-defense laws.

As part of the case's continuing fallout, Bill R. Lee Jr., Sanford's police chief, who had been criticized for his handling of the case, was relieved this week of his duties.

The information released on www.gzlegalcase.com, a Web site established by Mr. Zimmerman's lawyer, Mark O'Mara, includes video of Mr. Zimmerman waiting to be interviewed the day after the shooting. He has at least two bandages on the back of his head.

Mr. O’Mara had sought to keep the statements, audio and video sealed from the public, but the judge in the case ordered them released because Mr. Zimmerman had not confessed to a crime.

In his written statement about the shooting, Mr. Zimmerman said he was driving to a grocery store when he first spotted Mr. Martin "walking in the rain looking into homes" inside a gated community in Sanford.

Mr. Zimmerman, 28, a crime watch volunteer, said that after he pulled over and called 911 that he lost sight of Mr. Martin in the darkness before the teenager suddenly reappeared and "circled my vehicle."

As he spoke to the 911 dispatcher, Mr. Zimmerman said that Mr. Martin had again vanished, so Mr. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to look at a street sign so his location could be reported to the police.

He said the dispatcher told him not to follow Mr. Martin so he was returning to his vehicle when "the suspect emerged from the darkness and said 'You got a problem?'"

Mr. Zimmerman said he responded, “No,” but said that Mr. Martin told him, “You do now.”

In his interview with the police on the night of the shooting, Mr. Zimmerman said that Mr. Martin “jumped out from the bushes" and, using an expletive, asked what is your problem.

Mr. Zimmerman said that when he tried to use his cellphone to dial 911 again, that Mr. Martin punched him in the face, causing Mr. Zimmerman to fall "backwards onto my back."

“The suspect got on top of me,” Mr. Zimmerman wrote in the statement. “I yelled, ‘Help’ several times.”

Mr. Zimmerman wrote that Mr. Martin had cursed at him while telling him to be quiet before he grabbed Mr. Zimmerman’s head and slammed it into the sidewalk several times.

"My head felt like it was going to explode," Mr. Zimmerman wrote, adding that he continued to scream for help.

In an audio interview with the police, Mr. Zimmerman said Mr. Martin's punches felt like “bricks.”

“I couldn’t breathe and he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement,” Mr. Zimmerman said.

Mr. Zimmerman said he had screamed out, "Help me, help me. He is killing me.”

Mr. Zimmerman said that as he tried to slide from underneath Mr. Martin that the teenager "covered my mouth and nose and stopped my breathing."

Next, Mr. Zimmerman wrote, "I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and say, 'Your gonna die tonight," while calling him an obscene name. "I unholstered my firearm in fear for my life as he had assured he was going to kill me and fired one shot into his torso."

Mr. Zimmerman then wrote that Mr. Martin sat up and said, "You got me."

Moments later, Mr. Zimmerman said a neighbor had arrived, and shortly after that, a Sanford Police Department officer.

As Mr. Zimmerman retells his version of events in the days after the shooting, the story remains essentially consistent, although some of the language varies.

In one of the videos, Mr. Zimmerman is seen re-enacting the episode for the police. He also gives investigators a tour of the neighborhood, telling them where he first saw Mr. Martin and where his vehicle had been parked.

Mr. Zimmerman, who is in jail in Florida, had been released on a bond of $150,000 after a hearing on April 20.

But the judge in his case, Kenneth R. Lester Jr., revoked the bond for Mr. Zimmerman on June 1 and returned him to jail after prosecutors accused Mr. Zimmerman and his wife, Shellie Zimmerman, 25, of lying about their assets in court.

At the time, Mr. Zimmerman had access to as much as $135,000 from a PayPal account that collected donations through a legal defense Web site. But Shellie Zimmerman testified that she was unaware of how much money had been collected through the site. Because it was believed that Mr. Zimmerman had no money, he had been released on a relatively low bond for a murder charge.

Shellie Zimmerman was charged with perjury this month, accused of lying at a hearing when she told a judge that the couple had limited money. She was later released on $1,000 bond.

Lizette Alvarez reported from Miami, and Timothy Williams from New York.




Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 10:05 am
@Sturgis,
Yeah, why don't I find this account to be credible?

Everyone's innocent - in their own words...

Cycloptichorn
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 10:11 am
@Cycloptichorn,
There is a question.
Martin shot at intermediate range.
Zimmerman claims he shot Martin when Martin was sitting on him.

How close is intermediate?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 11:19 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:

Yeah, why don't I find this account to be credible?

I don't find it credible either, beyond the point that Martin may have punched him in the nose and knocked him down. But that still would not mean that Zimmerman had not provoked the altercation or tried to grab at Martin to detain him--Zimmerman was rather obsessed with trying to make sure he didn't get away before the police arrived.

And his account is not supported by his injuries. I just watched a video of Zimmerman taken the day after the shooting. He did not have black eyes. Apart from an apparent injury to his nose--which may, or may not, have even resulted in a slight fracture, and the two small cuts on the back of his head, he shows no evidence of having been beaten up, let alone of being beaten badly. He was not punched up as he describes. He was not unable to defend himself with less than deadly force. He wasn't in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death--he could have defended himself with equal force.

Zimmerman gave this account to police before Trayvon Martin's identity was known, and Zimmerman thought he had a confrontation with a thug, a criminal. His account is designed to reflect that and justify the shooting. It is not credible that Martin wanted to kill him, and said he would kill him. Martin was an unarmed high school junior with no history of aggressive behaviors, and, while he may have reacted in self defense to being stalked and confronted, he had no reason to want to kill Zimmerman or to act in the murderous manner Zimmerman described--it just doesn't make sense. I think the police also found this aspect of Zimmerman's account less than credible. In addition, if Martin was busy banging Zimmerman's head on the pavement, and then holding his hands over Zimmerman's mouth, how would he have even seen Zimmerman's gun, which was in his belt, and then try to reach for it?

I think Zimmerman might have been punched in the nose and knocked down, struggled briefly with Martin on the ground, possibly yelled for help, and then just panicked and shot Martin. And that would not be a justifiable use of deadly force.

His account of the shooting is as credible as his claiming he was indigent.



firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 11:29 am
@parados,
Martin was shot at fairly close range according to the medical examiner.

I read a comment on another Web site where someone speculated that Zimmerman held his gun so close to his own face before shooting Martin that the kickback from the gun might have been what caused the injury to his nose. If Martin was on top of him, Zimmerman could not have extended his arm to shoot Martin in the heart, so it is possible the gun would have been held close to Zimmerman's face.

Martin was found face down with his arms under him. That doesn't exactly jive with Zimmerman's account of events either.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 11:33 am
Quote:
"You got me."


The last time I heard anyone say that was in a Gene Autry movie.

Joe(it was the guy hiding behind the General Store sign. He fell to the street.)Nation
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 11:36 am
@firefly,
sometimes when you break your nose, your eyes blacken the next day...
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 11:53 am
@Rockhead,
Quote:
sometimes when you break your nose, your eyes blacken the next day...

The video I just watched was taken the next day. He was re-enacting what happened for the police. He did not have black eyes.

The photos which were previously posted of Zimmerman in this thread were also taken the day after the shooting when he returned to the police station--no black eyes.
This is Zimmerman the next day in a photo taken by the police.
http://standrivel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/George-Zimmer-Photo-Injuries.jpg
No black eyes, no apparent swelling of the nose or eyes, and the nose appears straight and not out of alignment. That's not a serious injury to the nose.

I've had a broken nose, from an auto accident, I know the eyes may not show blackening until the next day. But, Zimmerman's eyes were not blackened the next day--they look fine. And he sought no treatment for the alleged injury to his nose.
Quote:

In an audio interview with the police, Mr. Zimmerman said Mr. Martin's punches felt like “bricks.”

So, where is the evidence, on Zimmerman's face, or body, of all those "punches" that felt like "bricks"?
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 12:01 pm
@firefly,
if that is a next day photo, I'd not call his nose broken...

firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 12:52 pm
@Rockhead,
Quote:
if that is a next day photo, I'd not call his nose broken...

Videos taken the day after the shooting show no black eyes or apparent significant damage to his nose or face indicative of a beating.

Does he like he was repeatedly punched in the face--which is what he was telling the police? This video was made the day after the shooting.


He's also claiming that, after the shooting, that he got on top of Martin and spread his arms out to the side. But I believe Martin was found face down with his arms under his body. His story isn't consistent with the evidence. I can see why the police didn't find his account convincing.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jun, 2012 01:32 pm
Quote:
At one point during his interview with Mr. Serino, the investigator is heard asking Mr. Zimmerman whether it was possible that Mr. Martin felt threatened by the fact that he was being tailed by a stranger.

“He perceived you as a threat," Mr. Serino said. "He has every right to defend himself, especially if you reach into your pocket to grab your cellphone. Could that have been a possibility for him getting so enraged?”

Mr. Zimmerman then tells him, “The other thing was when he walked up to my car he reached into his waistband and held his hand there.”

Mr. Serino replied, “He was probably holding his iced tea, but that’s fine.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/us/documents-tell-zimmermans-side-in-martin-shooting.html?pagewanted=all

That certainly could explain any aggressive reaction on Martin's part. And it's the most likely scenario--that Martin was defending himself from Zimmerman.
0 Replies
 
 

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