45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 01:08 pm
@Joe Nation,
sorry, I had to laugh there, just thinking of the jury pool at the OJ trial.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 03:47 pm
Quote:
After the fact: Zimmerman's wife charged, what it could mean for his defense?
Patrik Jonsson | The Christian Science Monitor |
Jun 13, 2012

George Zimmerman’s defense team has a new, difficult challenge as it prepares for trial in the Trayvon Martin murder case: how to explain an alleged conspiracy involving the defendant's wife, Shellie Zimmerman, and the couple's attempt to keep secret a massive cache of donated funds?

Ms. Zimmerman posted bond on Tuesday after being charged with one count of perjury for allegedly lying to Florida Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester on April 20 when she claimed poverty, even as the couple was communicating by phone about moving more than $130,000 in donated defense funds between various bank accounts.

Ms. Zimmerman’s arrest came two weeks after Judge Lester revoked Mr. Zimmerman’s bond and sent him back to jail for failing to “properly respect the law [and] the integrity of the judicial process” and for sitting “like a potted plant” while leading “the court down the primrose path” with "material falsehoods" about his finances.

The case against Mr. Zimmerman comes down to credibility, as he appears to be the only solid witness to the events of Feb. 26, when he shot and killed unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, in a case that sparked a national debate about racial profiling and gun rights.

Ms. Zimmerman’s arrest and Mr. Zimmerman's revoked bond came after a trove of evidence – including medical evidence and eyewitness accounts – that seemed to support Mr. Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense: that Trayvon attacked him with a ferocity that made Zimmerman fear for his life.

Given that Mr. Zimmerman has now angered the judge, raised the ire of prosecutors, and created new questions in the public – and a potential jury pool – about his credibility, his defense team, led by Orlando attorney Mark O’Mara, will face a fresh and difficult struggle to separate the facts of the case from the defendant’s foibles, legal experts say.

"The couple “really seized defeat from the jaws of victory,” says Scott Greenfield, a New York defense lawyer who has blogged about the Trayvon Martin case and Mr. Zimmerman’s defense. “Clearly, anything that suggests that he’s been deceptive is going to create huge problems for his credibility at trial, and there’s a risk that these questions of whether George Zimmerman is a liar, whether his wife is a liar, whether it’s just all a bunch of lies, could finally resolve a lot of the ambiguity of this case.”

Prosecutors say that just before the April bond hearing, Ms. Zimmerman moved $74,000 in eight smaller amounts – all under $10,000, the point at which the Internal Revenue Service is alerted – from her husband’s account to her own. Days later, Ms. Zimmerman testified by phone at the bond hearing that the couple was basically penniless because they had little savings and George had had to quit his job after the uproar over the shooting.

After the hearing, Ms. Zimmerman used a series of smaller transactions to move another $85,500 from the account, which had been filled through PayPal donations from supporters going to “The Real George Zimmerman” website. Mr. O’Mara has since closed that site and replaced it with an independently managed website.

On Wednesday, O’Mara made his first public statement after Ms. Zimmerman’s arrest, saying he and Mr. Zimmerman are worried about her safety after she left the Seminole County jail. O’Mara has earlier said that the couple was “confused” and “fearful” as Florida prosecutors reversed a local decision to let Mr. Zimmerman go and instead decided to charge him with second-degree murder, a crime for which, if convicted, he could spend the rest of his life in prison.

O’Mara’s challenge will be to explain to future jurors the couple’s state of mind, while steering the case back toward the facts at hand, says Mr. Greenfield.

“One of the hardest things is to understand what goes through the mind of a defendant in a high-profile case,” he says. “He probably didn’t have a firm grip on who to trust or what to trust, whether the system itself was trustworthy. There’s a lot of paranoia that tends to permeate attitudes toward the criminal justice system that can cause people to make some poor choices. Once they feel more comfortable with either the system or their lawyer, they come to realize that these choices were pretty boneheaded.”

O’Mara and Mr. Zimmerman return to face Judge Lester on June 29, when the court will review the bond revocation. O'Mara will likely take that opportunity to try to undo some of the damage to Mr. Zimmerman’s credibility and to try to steer the judge – and the American public – back to the facts of the case.

In front of a nation that watched as “Justice for Trayvon” became a rallying cry for thousands of protesters across the country, O'Mara will have a difficult task to rebuild the Zimmermans’ credibility, legal analysts say.

Indeed, the couple's problems may multiply if authorities find that Ms. Zimmerman willfully structured the cash transfers to avoid alerting the IRS, Jeffrey Neiman, a former federal prosecutor, told the Associated Press. Such diversions, he says, could lead to “serious federal criminal charges.”

“You can’t perpetrate this kind of fraud on the court and expect there’s not going to be consequences,” Florida legal analyst Bill Sheaffer told WFTV, a news station in Orlando.
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/after-fact-zimmermans-wife-charged-what-it-could-mean-his-defense

O'Mara's statements that Zimmerman's judgment was distorted by paranoia about the legal system could backfire on him. It would reinforce the notion that Zimmerman's paranoia about criminals (and young black men) distorted his judgment about the necessity to follow and confront Trayvon Martin---something that would fit in with the state's contention that Zimmerman acted with a "depraved mind". I think it is foolish for the defense to raise such questions about Zimmerman's judgment.

In addition, this isn't Zimmerman's first brush with the criminal justice system, and, on his myspace page, he had previously bragged about beating the prior criminal charges against him--something that suggests he is arrogant about his ability to beat the system.

And, let's not forget that George Zimmerman's father is a former magistrate--so, why shouldn't Zimmerman feel able to trust the system, with his daddy's guidance and support, at least enough to reveal the truth about his finances, and second passport, at a bail hearing, and why would he think the truth wouldn't be uncovered if he let his wife lie?

He isn't anywhere near as naive as his lawyer is trying to make him sound, but this man may, indeed, have serious problems with judgment and that may well have affected his perceptions, and his actions, that led to his shooting of Trayvon Martin. And, it's Zimmerman's own lawyer that's now opened the door to that possibility.

So, while the defense certainly has credibility problems now, they also seem to have other problems as well--relating to Zimmerman's judgment.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 03:49 pm
@firefly,
Much of that won't make it into a court room concerned with how and why Zimmerman shot Martin. It isn't relevant.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 04:03 pm
@parados,
You may be right. But the issue of Zimmerman's judgment, and atate of mind, will be relevant at a trial, because that is at the heart of a second degree murder charge--his judgment is relevant as to why he noticed Martin in the first place, and why he felt impelled to follow and confront him, and whether he was thinking straight, and using reasonable judgment, when he did those things. I don't think this will just be about Zimmerman's judgment at the moment he fired his gun.

And I do think the perjury conspiracy with his wife suggests he does have judgment problems--which is what his lawyer just admitted.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 04:08 pm
@firefly,
His judgment and state of mind at the time of the shooting are relevant. His actions prior to that might be relevant. Any actions since then aren't really relevant to what he thought at the time of the shooting unless they go specifically to the shooting or to his feelings that may have led to the shooting. How he handles his money isn't really relevant. That he may have lied to the court about money isn't really relevant to the shooting. It doesn't really go to his thinking at the time of the shooting and I doubt any court would let it in to prejudice the jurors.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 05:27 pm
@parados,
Quote:
That he may have lied to the court about money isn't really relevant to the shooting.

It's relevant to the issue of his credibility about the shooting. If he has no compunctions about blantantly lying to a judge, why would he have compunctions about lying to the police regarding the circumstances of the shooting? It's relevant to whether he can be believed.
JeffreyEqualityNewma
 
  4  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 05:34 pm
A potential 15 year sentence sounds like a bargaining tool to me.

And from what I can understand, without donations received before the date of the bond hearing, the Zimmermans would not have had enough to pay bail. Was the judge trying to set bail too high for them to be able to pay it? Was the idea that George simply should not be released? So because of the donations, Zimmerman's wife was able to transfer enough money to her account to go pay the bail bondsman. Without the donations she couldn't have gotten him out of jail. She's in jail because George's bail wasn't high enough?

Geez, we could all be in jail!

Sure, I have enough to pay all my medical bills as long as I don't pay my utilities, mortgage, car loan, or buy food, gas, clothing, or any personal necessities and if I cash out every single thing I have and don't pay the tax penalty or mind not having life insurance.

The man can't work. She's a student. He has legal bills out the wazoo. They are only surviving this because of donations. And the prosecutor is worried that he's too rich.

I can tell you about a lot of wives who don't have a clue how much money they have.

She could be guilty. But once again, I'm not willing to assume guilt just because some prosecutor made charges against her.

I always think of the Duke Lacrosse team when the mob is willing to be judge and jury before any evidence is presented.
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 06:16 pm
@JeffreyEqualityNewma,
JeffreyEqualityNewma wrote:
A potential 15 year sentence sounds like a bargaining tool to me.

And from what I can understand, without donations received before the date of the bond hearing, the Zimmermans would not have had enough to pay bail. Was the judge trying to set bail too high for them to be able to pay it? Was the idea that George simply should not be released? So because of the donations, Zimmerman's wife was able to transfer enough money to her account to go pay the bail bondsman. Without the donations she couldn't have gotten him out of jail. She's in jail because George's bail wasn't high enough?

Geez, we could all be in jail!

Sure, I have enough to pay all my medical bills as long as I don't pay my utilities, mortgage, car loan, or buy food, gas, clothing, or any personal necessities and if I cash out every single thing I have and don't pay the tax penalty or mind not having life insurance.

The man can't work. She's a student. He has legal bills out the wazoo. They are only surviving this because of donations. And the prosecutor is worried that he's too rich.

I can tell you about a lot of wives who don't have a clue how much money they have.

She could be guilty. But once again, I'm not willing to assume guilt just because some prosecutor made charges against her.

I always think of the Duke Lacrosse team when the mob is willing to be judge and jury before any evidence is presented.
Your points are well taken, Jeff!!!





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 07:40 pm
@JeffreyEqualityNewma,
Quote:
And from what I can understand, without donations received before the date of the bond hearing, the Zimmermans would not have had enough to pay bail. Was the judge trying to set bail too high for them to be able to pay it? Was the idea that George simply should not be released? So because of the donations, Zimmerman's wife was able to transfer enough money to her account to go pay the bail bondsman. Without the donations she couldn't have gotten him out of jail. She's in jail because George's bail wasn't high enough?

The amount that Zimmerman had in his legal fund, prior to his bail hearing, is not why Shellie Zimmerman was arrested and charged with perjury. She knowingly, and intentionally, lied to the judge about the amounts in that fund, and she transferred the money between accounts in a deliberate attempt to conceal their assets.

The state has already presented the evidence to back up their perjury charge against Mrs Zimmerman--including transcripts of her recorded conversations with her husband, transfer records of the amounts in question, and the testimony of the official at the credit union, where a Zimmerman account was maintained, who spoke directly to George Zimmerman by phone, and assisted Shellie Zimmerman in the transfer of funds. And Zimmerman's lawyer has acknowledged that the court was deliberately mislead by the Zimmermans concerning their assets--and he was mislead as well.

Zimmerman and his wife were trying to hide assets, of at least $135,000, in order to convince the court they were indigent. They had already spent at least $20,000 from the fund on their living expenses, the $135,000 was what remained in the fund at the time of the bail hearing--and that's according to Zimmerman's lawyer. Zimmerman had also convinced his own lawyer he was indigent, by misleading him about the true amount in his defense fund. The lawyer had been planning to ask the court to have Zimmerman declared as indigent, so the taxpayers could foot the defense costs. No matter how you look at it, these people were not indigent.
Quote:

I can tell you about a lot of wives who don't have a clue how much money they have.

Shellie Zimmerman knew exactly how much they had--she was the one moving the defense fund money between accounts, in an attempt to conceal it. And she continued to move it after the bail hearing. The state has the records of the transfers she made.
Quote:
Without the donations she couldn't have gotten him out of jail.

Actually, the Zimmermans only put up $5,000 of the bail amount--even though they had at least $135,000 available to them--the rest was secured by Zimmerman's father putting up his house as collateral.

Zimmerman would have been released on bail, and the bail amount might have been exactly the same without Shellie Zimmerman's lies and attempts to conceal the true amount they had. There were no pressing reasons to deny him bail or assume that he wouldn't make his court appearances--and he was required to wear an electronic ankle monitor, so the state knew where to find him. The lying about the assets was really pointless--unless Zimmerman was considering fleeing and that was why he and his wife wanted his stash of cash, as well as his second passport, hidden from the court.
Quote:
And the prosecutor is worried that he's too rich.

I don't think anyone, including the prosecutor, really cares about how much George Zimmerman has in his defense fund--they simply expect him, and his wife, to be honest about their assets when they are required to disclose them to the court. The issue is perjury, at an official proceeding, and a deliberate attempt to mislead a judge regarding information he requested in order to render an informed decision. That's why Shellie Zimmerman is charged with perjury as a third degree felony.

And I read earlier today that Shellie Zimmerman might also be in trouble with the IRS because of the manner in which she transferred the money from one account to another--in amounts of $10,000 or less--possibly to avoid alerting the IRS to the total amount being moved around. But I have no idea whether or not that's true.

Maybe they'll now establish a Shellie Zimmerman defense fund, as well as the one for her husband.

Ironically, she could wind up doing more time than her husband will. The charges against him could be dismissed at an immunity hearing. The perjury case against her seems pretty tight.







0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jun, 2012 08:16 pm
@JeffreyEqualityNewma,
Quote:
She could be guilty. But once again, I'm not willing to assume guilt just because some prosecutor made charges against her.

I always think of the Duke Lacrosse team when the mob is willing to be judge and jury before any evidence is presented.

What mob? In this case, based on the evidence, it was the judge who declared that Mrs Zimmerman had lied to him--while her husband just sat there "like a potted palm" and allowed that to happen.

What's kept you from being aware of the evidence?

Quote:
On Tuesday, 25-year-old Shellie Zimmerman was charged with perjury, a third-degree felony that is punishable by up to five years in prison and a $5,000 fine. She was released on bond herself.

Earlier this month, the judge said in a sharply worded ruling that George Zimmerman and his wife had lied about how much money they had at a hearing that resulted in his release on $150,000 bond. He’s now back in jail after the judge revoked the bond.

George Zimmerman has pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder in the teen’s slaying. Circuit Judge Kenneth Lester ordered Zimmerman returned to the Seminole County Jail and revoked his bond June 1. He had been free since late April.

George Zimmerman’s attorney Mark O’Mara has said the couple was confused and fearful when they misled court officials about how much money they had. A call and email to him Tuesday weren’t immediately returned.

Records show that in the days before the bond hearing, Shellie Zimmerman transferred $74,000 in eight smaller amounts ranging from $7,500 to $9,990, from her husband’s credit union account to hers, according to an arrest affidavit. It also shows that $47,000 was transferred from George Zimmerman’s account to his sister’s in the days before the bond hearing.

Four days after he was released on bond, Shellie Zimmerman transferred more than $85,500 from her account into her husband’s account, the affidavit said. The affidavit also said jail call records show that George Zimmerman instructed her to “pay off all the bills,” including an American Express and Sam’s Club card.

A state attorney investigator met with credit union officials and learned she had control of transfers to and from her husband’s account.

Jeffrey Neiman, a former federal prosecutor now in private practice, said cash transactions in excess of $10,000 usually trigger a reporting requirement by the bank to multiple government agencies — including the IRS.

“If Mrs. Zimmerman intentionally structured the financial transactions in a manner to keep the offense under $10,000, not only may she have committed perjury in the state case, but she also may have run afoul of several federal statutes and could face serious federal criminal charges,” Neiman wrote in an email to The Associated Press.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/george-zimmermans-wife-charged-with-perjury-over-finances/2012/06/13/gJQAjBdzZV_story.html


You still think she "could be" be guilty of perjury? How much more evidence do you need? Rolling Eyes The woman claimed,under oath, at an official proceeding, that she was indigent. That clearly was not the case.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 07:14 am
@firefly,
Quote:

It's relevant to the issue of his credibility about the shooting.

No, it isn't.

Whether he is a habitual liar has no relevance when comparing the evidence to his statement. Does the evidence line up with what he said or not is all the court will care about. Anything else will be considered prejudicial against him and won't be allowed. The court doesn't give a damn if he lied about how many drinks he had or what color his skin is or what time it was or how much money was in his bank account. They only care about facts of that night. Just as the court doesn't give a damn about the facts of the shooting if they try his wife for perjury.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 07:15 am
@JeffreyEqualityNewma,
Quote:

I can tell you about a lot of wives who don't have a clue how much money they have.

Sure you can. But when the wife transfers $74,000 to her account, I suspect she wouldn't claim they have no money at all.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 07:28 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
@firefly,
Sorry deal there is no question in my mind that those charges on his wife are going to be use by the state as a tool to try to force a plea deal of some kind out of Zimmerman so they can save face.

Not an uncommon means of forcing a plea deal out of one member of a couple and once more we have a let make a deal justice system.


This is state gangsterism pure and simple. The prosecutor Corey is going to go down and go down hard.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 07:45 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
The prosecutor Corey is going to go down and go down hard.

I think you should keep your sexual fantasies to yourself.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 08:09 am
@JeffreyEqualityNewma,
Quote:
She could be guilty. ...


She could be guilty of trying to keep her husband from being killed in some Flori-DUH prison awaiting trial for trying to protect himself from one of the special/protected peoples of the land...

I get these phone calls from people wanting to tell me about jobs in those two states, Flori-DUH and Californicatia, and they act like they're in a state of shock to hear that there might be somebody on the Earth who doesn't want to live in those places, and part of me never wanting to hear about Flori-DUH is its shitty justice system.

Again, this is gonna be more than even the Flori-DUH losers can take and at some point, this prosecutress is gonna end up flipping burgers along with Mike Nifong at the golden arches.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 09:22 am
@gungasnake,
No wonder Florida has a shitty justice system. It's had a Republican controlled government for almost 2 decades.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 09:59 am
Nifong at his new job...

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLLIGu5ho5_D59-YYJJxPoZ6o4J_-6elUUVbA_oR02_VmJDVZr
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 10:34 am
@gungasnake,
You'd LOVE Florida, not Miami, but just about everywhere else.
It's full of people like you.

Joe(It's why there are so many gated communities)Nation
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 10:46 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
She could be guilty of trying to keep her husband from being killed in some Flori-DUH prison awaiting trial for trying to protect himself from one of the special/protected peoples of the land...

The same husband who killed an unarmed kid who may have been trying to protect himself from this overzealous wannabe cop who had been stalking him?

The same husband who was previously court-ordered to take anger management classes after he attacked a law enforcement officer who was trying to make an arrest?

The same husband who was prescribed psychiatric medication for hyperactivity and impulse control problems?

The same husband who conspired with her to mislead the court?

Her motives for lying to the court are irrelevant--the evidence clearly indicates that, while under oath, she intentionally mislead the court and that the third degree felony perjury charge against her is warranted.

And, right now, her husband is probably safer in jail than he would be anywhere else. He has a large area all to himself and he has no contact with any other inmates. And that was also true prior to his last bond hearing.

Mrs Zimmerman could now wind up doing more jail time than her husband--the case against her looks a lot more solid than the case against him.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jun, 2012 10:54 am
@firefly,
Quote:
Mrs Zimmerman could now wind up doing more jail time than her husband--the case against her looks a lot more solid than the case against him.

First offense, extenuating circumstances mean at most it will be probably result in time served, a fine and probation
 

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