45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 09:12 am
@parados,
Self Defense have never been a crime and yes you had always had the right to used force up to lethal force if that is needed to prevent likely serous harm or death to yourself or others.

mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 09:13 am
@firefly,
So far I have stayed out of this, but I have to ask firefly a question.

Are you saying that you firmly believe that a there is a minimum amount of injury a person must sustain before they are allowed to use force to protect themselves?
You keep mentioning how little Zimmerman was or was not injured before he used deadly force, so what is the minimum injury level a person must sustain first?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 09:21 am
@OmSigDAVID,
David I will need to unignore JTT as his postings seems amusing that the cop should had allowed the poor mental ill and or high gentleman to complete his dinning on the other gentleman face.

If I was the person who face was ebing eaten I would had been very very happy that the cop did not play around trying to used less then lethal force and ended the attack as fast as possible.


0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 09:43 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

So far I have stayed out of this, but I have to ask firefly a question.

Are you saying that you firmly believe that a there is a minimum amount of injury a person must sustain before they are allowed to use force to protect themselves?
You keep mentioning how little Zimmerman was or was not injured before he used deadly force, so what is the minimum injury level a person must sustain first?

I took firefly's posts to indicate that the available evidence does not support the claims being made that Zimmerman had extensive injuries, that "his head was being pounded on the pavement," or that he was being attacked with a deadly weapon.

I would think that being hit in the face with a fist is not something a "reasonable person" would describe as being life-threatening. And if his life was not threatened, it eliminates self-defense.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 10:01 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
I would think that being hit in the face with a fist is not something a "reasonable person" would describe as being life-threatening. And if his life was not threatened, it eliminates self-defense.


You do have a right to self defense if someone just hit you in the face however you would not have the right to use lethal force in that case.

However if you are on the ground with someone on top of you and he is pounding your head into the sidewalk you would have every right to use deadly force.

Trayvon was posing a likelihood of serious harm or even causing death at that point to Zimmerman and that allow lethal force to be used to stop the attack.

Zimmerman was under no legal obligation to wait until he had serious harm done to him by Trayvon.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 10:36 am
@BillRM,
Oh... so self defense is not a crime. (Unless you are defending yourself then it is a crime.)
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 10:44 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
There is little question Trayvon was doing his very very best that night to severely harm or kill Zimmerman.

On the contrary, there is a great deal of question about that, and about whether Martin's actions reflected self defense on his part.

It's really time you acknowledged that you don't know what happened in that final confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin.

You don't know who provoked it, or who became physical first, or exactly what transpired when they scuffled with each other. And you definitely do not know whether it was Martin who was trying to defend himself, and his own life, from Zimmerman because Zimmerman had pursued him and acted in a threatening manner when he finally confronted him.

There are no witness statements that unequivocally answer any of those question, nor does the forensic evidence, including Zimmerman's injuries, answer any of those questions.

And you don't even know the exact version of events that Zimmerman gave to the police--because his statements have not yet been made public, and the prosecutor is currently trying to keep them from being released to the public prior to a trial. So nothing you have been saying is actually firmly rooted in the facts or evidence of this case--nothing.

Zimmerman apparently gave more than one version of what happened--the head pounding story was only one version--and it was the contradictions and inconsistencies in his accounts that raised doubts in the minds of the police and investigators regarding his credibility. And the prosecutor said, only last week, that his shifting stories, and the inconsistencies, are part of the evidence which will be used against him.

So your arrogant pronouncements regarding your certainty of what happened are nothing more than bullshit. If the facts of this case were clear there would be no controversy about it. It would not require adjudication in a court of law. The facts in this case have never been clear.

Your posts are nothing more than a mindless, and obsessive, reiteration of your fantasies about what happened based on your own preconceived gung-ho support for the gun laws, and self defense laws, in the state of Florida, with little or no recognition that those laws might not apply in this case--particularly if Zimmerman had instigated and provoked the deadly encounter, and he had other means of defense beside deadly force available to him, and if Martin was the one re-acting defensively to a threat posed by Zimmerman.

And the more you reiterate your totally unsubstantiated pronouncements of Zimmerman's "innocence", and your indignation that he is even being held accountable for his actions, the more like a dimwitted fool you sound. Go peddle your regurgitated NRA bullshit elsewhere.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 11:14 am
@firefly,
One thing is clear if the various maps of where events occurred are accurate. It is clear Zimmerman was not heading back to his car when the scuffle occurred.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 11:26 am
@firefly,
Quote:
On the contrary, there is a great deal of question about that, and about whether Martin's actions reflected self defense on his part.


Not a mark on Trayvon except for the bullet wound and two black eyes and a broken nose and wounds on the black of Zimmerman's head.

Spin all you can Firely but Trayvon was doing his best to harm Zimmerman and the reverse was not true until Zimmerman came to the conclusion he was in serous danger.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 11:27 am
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Are you saying that you firmly believe that a there is a minimum amount of injury a person must sustain before they are allowed to use force to protect themselves?
You keep mentioning how little Zimmerman was or was not injured before he used deadly force, so what is the minimum injury level a person must sustain first?

I have mentioned those things only in response to BillRM's insistence that the photos of Zimmerman support a contention that the back of his head was repeatedly pounded on the pavement--which in BillRM's mind justifies the use of deadly force.
Neither the photos, nor medical reports, note anything more than minor injuries--for which Zimmerman received no medical treatment, and he, in fact, refused all medical treatment or further medical evaluation. So, I personally don't believe the injuries, in and of themselves, support anything BillRM is saying.
A punch in the nose does not justify the use of deadly force. And the injury to the nose was never x-rayed, nor was the nose reset or packed--suggesting it was a very minor injury and caused Zimmerman no problems he felt warranted any treatment. Nor was Zimmerman diagnosed with a concussion or subdural hematoma, or any other consequence of alleged head trauma, and he received no x-rays or CAT scan of his head--which would be routine following a blow to the back of the head.

Certainly, a degree of severe injury, might more clearly support a need to use deadly force, particularly against an unarmed person, because it might back up a claim of fear of imminent death or great bodily harm--which are necessary under the Florida statute. .
Quote:
The 2011 Florida Statutes
Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.012.html


But, in the Zimmerman case, he appears to have been the pursuer, based on evidence which has been released, which makes the "stand your ground" aspect of this case rather problematic. He could have avoided the entire encounter--he chose not to. And it is unclear who provoked or instigated the physical scuffle which did occur, and which of the two parties was acting in self defense. Those things are extremely relevant when it comes to determining legally justified use of deadly force. Such matters will likely form the basis of the immunity hearing which is still probably months away.

So degree of injury is far from the only factor to be considered, that's simply BillRM's obsession.

Zimmerman was scuffling with an unarmed individual, and he did not lack the ability to fight back by using his own arms, legs, hands, feet, teeth, etc. But the lack of injuries on Martin, beside the fatal gunshot wound, suggest he didn't bother to do that, he apparently didn't defend himself with less than deadly force, he instead drew his weapon and fired a fatal shot at close range. Was he justified in doing that? Well, that's what the legal case is all about. And we'll have to wait until it plays out in court to see if we get any answers.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 11:30 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Not a mark on Trayvon except for the bullet wound and two black eyes and a broken nose and wounds


Pretty contradictory in the course of 15 to 20 words, Bill.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 11:38 am
@mysteryman,
If you're saying there is no minimum amount of injury needed to justify a deadly response, I'm going to agree. If you let , say, a professional boxer in your approximate weight class have one free punch, there won't be a second.

In this particular instance, I don't think this will be a decisive factor, and unless I misunderstand, I don't think this is firefly's position.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 01:34 pm

If Zimmy were a race-horse, I 'd bet a lot on HIM.
It looks good.





David
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 01:47 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
He could have avoided the entire encounter--he chose not to.


As was his legal right.

Quote:
it is unclear who provoked or instigated the physical scuffle which did occur, and which of the two parties was acting in self defense


I predict that this will remain true even after the evidence is sifted, in which case according to the Constitution Zimmerman should remain a free man.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 01:48 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
So far I have stayed out of this, but I have to ask firefly a question.

Are you saying that you firmly believe that a there is a minimum
amount of injury a person must sustain before they are allowed to use force to protect themselves?
You keep mentioning how little Zimmerman was or was not injured
before he used deadly force, so what is the minimum injury level a person must sustain first?
To that quesion must be added the logical propriety
of a requirement of PREDICTING the effects of the next impact (or the 1 after that).

Does the law require the victim (Zimmy) to consult his crystal ball, during the beating
or merely to read the palm of the bad guy who is battering him??





David
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 02:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
in which case according to the Constitution Zimmerman should remain a free man.


What, pray tell, Hawk, is there in the consteetwoshun that would suggest that?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 02:24 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
in which case according to the Constitution Zimmerman should remain a free man.


What, pray tell, Hawk, is there in the consteetwoshun that would suggest that?


Quote:
Although the Constitution of the United States does not cite it explicitly, presumption of innocence is widely held to follow from the 5th, 6th, and 14th amendments. See also Coffin v. United States and In re Winship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 02:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:

Does the law require the victim (Zimmy) to consult his crystal ball, during the beating
or merely to read the palm of the bad guy who is battering him??

The law allowing the use of deadly force requires neither of those things.
Quote:
Q. WHEN CAN I USE MY HANDGUN TO PROTECT MYSELF?
A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm or trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary, or kidnapping. Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, assault, manslaughter, or worse.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/forms/P-00090-DeadlyForce-0911.pdf


The law certainly would allow Zimmerman to respond with the same degree of force--which was hand to hand combat.

To justifiably use deadly force, Zimmerman must now prove that, at the time he fired his gun...
Quote:
He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself


Was he in danger of imminent death or was there a basis for such a reasonable belief? Based on what we know thus far, that does not appear to be the case, nor did he lack the capacity to defend himself with less than deadly force.
Did he reasonably believe he was in danger of great bodily harm to himself? Possibly, but, again, he did not lack the capacity to defend himself with less than deadly force against an unarmed person. He could have fought back. Using a deadly weapon in that particular situation might legally be regarded as excessive force.

And, if it was Zimmerman who provoked, or instigated, the physical encounter, the use of deadly force might not be justified at all under Florida law in this particular situation.

We do not know exactly why Zimmerman claims he had to use deadly force--the complete statements he gave to the police have not been made public, and he gave more than one statement, in addition to re-enacting what took place. And we may not know what he said in that regard until his immunity hearing.

So, defending Zimmerman's action in shooting Martin, without even knowing exactly why he claimed it was necessary to take such an action, really makes no sense to me.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 02:36 pm
Quote:
Stand Your Ground laws, which eliminate the longstanding legal requirement that a person threatened outside of his or her own home retreat rather than use force, are the latest manifestation of the political strength of the gun rights movement. First adopted in Florida in 2005, Stand Your Ground laws, drafted and promoted by the National Rifle Association, have since been enacted in some form in more than 20 states. The Trayvon Martin shooting suggests that, in the rush to adopt these laws, lawmakers and gun advocates have gone too far in authorizing the use of deadly force.

Although the facts of Trayvon Martin’s death remain uncertain, we know that George Zimmerman, who was active in the local neighborhood crime watch, suspected Martin was a criminal and shot him on a Florida street. Despite being instructed by police to stay away, Zimmerman confronted Martin. The situation escalated quickly into violence...

Florida legislators, however, insist the Stand Your Ground law does not provide a defense for people like Zimmerman, who pursue and confront someone. Florida Senator Durrell Peadon, who sponsored the law, said that Zimmerman “has no protection under my law.” According to state Representative Dennis Baxley, “There’s nothing in this statute that authorizes you to pursue and confront people.” The law, Baxley notes, was designed only “to prevent you from being attacked by other people.”

The problem is that nothing in Peadon and Baxley’s law says this. It provides that any person may use deadly force when “he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another.” So long as someone reasonably thinks he or someone else is in danger, he can shoot to kill, regardless of whether the shooter is the one who initiated the hostile confrontation.

Indeed, given the law’s authorization of the use of deadly force to protect other people and, as the law also provides, “to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony,” Florida’s law unambiguously authorizes people to pursue and confront others. Whatever the merits of standing your ground when personally threatened, Florida’s law goes much further and encourages vigilantism. It tells people, who today are increasingly likely to be carrying concealed weapons, that they can pretend to be police officers and use their guns to protect and serve the broader public.

Stand Your Ground laws should only allow what their name suggests: permit people who are threatened to stand their own ground and protect themselves. They should not give people the right to use force to defend someone else’s ground. Under no circumstances should people be able to confront others in a hostile manner, end up using deadly force, and escape punishment.
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/what-the-florida-stand-your-ground-law-says
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 May, 2012 02:45 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Stand Your Ground laws should only allow what their name suggests: permit people who are threatened to stand their own ground and protect themselves. They should not give people the right to use force to defend someone else’s ground. Under no circumstances should people be able to confront others in a hostile manner, end up using deadly force, and escape punishment


The last sentence is totally disconnected from the first two. This is an example of extremely poor argument skills, for this and many other reasons.
 

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