45
   

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

 
 
Marcel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2012 02:33 pm
I would say based on evidence, he is not guilty.
The presumption is he is innocent and the burden of the state is to prove he is guilty, not just assert it from a gut level like most of the drones have done on this blog. But what do I know, I am just weighing the evidence as presented from the grossly tainted news media.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2012 04:23 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Relationship violence and stranger violence are two very different animals. I happen to think that they are not treated differently enough by the law an the know-it-alls, so while I have a multitude of complaints against the justice system the fact that Zimmerman and Alexander were not treated the same by police is not one of them.

The self defense laws, like Florida's Stand Your Ground law, do not make any distinction between relationship violence and stranger violence, nor should they, nor is that even the issue in the Alexander case. A person should have the protection of applicable law in all situations, and the Stand Your Ground law should have been applicable in Alexander's case--that's what all the flap is about. The murder of a domestic partner is not regarded as legally different than the murder of a stranger, murder is murder. And, since more women are murdered by their partners, or by someone known to them, rather than by strangers, they certainly should have the legitimate protection of all self defense laws in domestic situations.

Alexander's case was not a battered-wife defense, she felt imminently threatened by her husband, she feared for her life, and she could not flee the situation, so she stood her ground, and fired a warning shot, and didn't actually harm anyone, but did succeed in getting the person threatening to kill her, her husband, out of the house and away from her. Although that sort of action should have fallen within the protection of the Stand Your Ground law, at her pre-trial hearing regarding that law, the judge felt she had options to flee, and should have used them, and was not justified in firing her gun--but, since she was in her home, under the Stand Your Ground law she definitely had no obligation to try to flee--and that's what made the judge's ruling problematic in the mind of many people--his ruling was actually contrary to the law. Was the law not being applied because she was female? Because she was black? And Alexander's case seemed to follow a pattern where the Stand Your Ground law was not being upheld, in cases where it should have applied, because of the race or gender of the person involved. Alexander's case was not the only Stand Your Ground case to raise such questions.

My intention is not to veer off into a discussion of Alexander's case in particular, but simply to raise it as another controversial case, in the state of Florida, where racial factors might be influencing the criminal justice process and the types of decisions made within that system. Would the state attorney have concurred with the lead investigator in the Trayvon Martin homicide, that Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged with manslaughter that night, if Trayvon had been white? Was there less need to carefully investigate the circumstances of the shooting because of some racial profiling of the victim in the state attorney's office?

Was Zimmerman not arrested immediately because he is a white Hispanic, and was Marissa Alexander arrested on the spot because she is black? These are the sorts of questions that many people are asking. Are laws being differentially applied or enforced, in the state of Florida, because of racial bias? That question is part of what triggered off the firestorm about the failure to immediately arrest George Zimmerman--particularly since Zimmerman had not reported that he, or anyone else, was being menaced or threatened, in any way, by this person when he called 911, nor was this person doing anything criminal, and also because it was Zimmerman who continued to follow this person, even after the 911 dispatcher told him not to do so. Should Stand Your Ground even apply if you are the pursuer, which is what Zimmerman appeared to be? If the lead investigator wasn't convinced by Zimmerman's account, why didn't the state attorney follow his recommendation to arrest Zimmerman, so a legal determination could be made as to whether this was manslaughter or justifiable self defense--was it possibly because the homicide victim was black and that fit into some pre-conceived bias in the state attorney's office?

The firestorm wasn't just about whether Zimmerman was a racist, it was also about possible racial bias in the law enforcement and criminal justice systems, and that issue is not being sufficiently emphasized in this thread. The outrage in this case came from within the black community, and was led by the black community, and it centered on civil rights issues, like the equal application and protection of law afforded to that community. And that's the "public pressure" that led to Zimmerman's arrest and the appointment of a special prosecutor. The problem is, keeping up that sort of public pressure now, to try to obtain a conviction, may be as unjust as the failure to arrest Zimmerman in the first place. Now that the case is in court, where it belongs, the process of justice can, and should, be scrutinized, but it should be allowed to run its course, without being influenced by the continued public pressure, from either side of the fence.

The main legal issue to be decided is whether George Zimmerman was legally justified in taking the life of Trayvon Martin--was this a justifiable act of self defense, as defined by, and protected by, the laws of the state of Florida, or was it an act of manslaughter or second degree murder? This question might be answered at a pre-trial hearing with a possible dismissal of the charges, or it might be answered by a jury after a trial next year. However it is answered, that answer should be arrived at on the basis of law, and all available evidence, and not in response to public pressure of any sort, from either side. Both George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin's family deserve to see the fairest, most unbiased, judicial process possible and that's what will help everyone, hopefully, to accept whatever the final verdict is. And I sincerely hope that what we will get to see in this case will be a completely fair and unbiased judicial process.









0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2012 05:22 pm
@Marcel,
Marcel it a great news story evil racist arm white guy track and kill in cold blood poor innocent unarmed black kid on his way home from buying junk food at the 7/11.

The only problem is that real life is never that simple and the story have a great many holes in it.

Similar to the story of three white rich kids that was suppose to had gang rape a a poor hard working single mother and college student/part time dancer because they was mad that she was not white when she show up to dance.

Same actors such as Sharpton beating the same drums in both cases.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2012 06:09 pm
@BillRM,
Why does your drum sound so hollow? Maybe it's because it's nothing but air and no skin. Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Apr, 2012 06:44 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Quote:
Electing judges is an excellent way to adversely affect legal systems.


It's also an excellent way to positively affect legal systems.

Circuit court and county judges in Florida hold office for 6 years.
In my experience here, the public's memory doesn't outlast their terms.


Can you explain what you think are the positive effects of elected judges, please, Panzade?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 02:44 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Jn7PT96hXl4/T2xcrvxGMqI/AAAAAAAACm8/2-37ye8uL1U/s1600/gun.gif
U raise an interesting concept, Firefly.
If someone feels threatened by someone else,
he probably shud address his concerns to the police.
If the police succeed in ENDING the threat, then all is well.
However, I 've heard too many complaints of passive inaction by police.

If the threat actively continues,
then the potential victim owes it to himself
to resolve the anticipated future emergency,
regardless of the presence or the absence of any Stand Your Ground Law.

With a little careful planning beforehand (and maybe some help): the danger woud just silently,
cleanly, invisibly and permanently disappear from human observation.

I once saw a purely fictional entertainment movie, touching on this concept,
wherein a flourish was added: eventually, after the danger was deemed "missing,"
the police found a receipt for payment for a bus ticket in his apartment,
to a popular, distant tourist destination.

"A man 's gotta DO
what a man 's gotta DO."



Multiple be the chuckles.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 09:11 am


Stand Your Ground makes sense
These are sane laws that protect people
By John Lott / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS


Call them what you will: “Stand Your Ground” or “Castle Doctrine” laws.
Mayor Bloomberg and members of Congress, speaking on the House floor,
go so far as to label them “shoot first” laws.

This is a gross exaggeration — a slander, in fact, against legislation
designed to reform a flaw in our treatment of self-defense. Earlier
statutes affirmatively required potential victims to retreat as much
as possible before using deadly force to protect themselves,
sometimes putting their lives in jeopardy.
The supposedly infamous laws passed in Florida and elsewhere, in contrast,
use a “reasonable person” standard for determining when it is
proper to defend oneself — requiring that a reasonable person
would believe that another individual intends to inflict serious
bodily harm or death on them.

Pundits who’ve had a field day ripping apart Stand Your Ground laws
repeatedly fail to mention that crucial “reasonable person” standard.
The wild speculation that the laws give broad license for vigilantes
to go around recklessly shooting people are a totally irresponsible caricature.
Ultimately, it is judges or jurors who determine what constitutes a
reasonable fear under such a law, not the person who fires the gun.

A few examples: Under a Stand Your Ground law, you can’t shoot a
fleeing criminal in the back. You can’t provoke an attack.
You can’t use unnecessary force to stop an attack. I’m not going to
get into the twisted case of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin,
the facts of which are still not fully understood but, whether
Zimmerman acted in self-defense with Trayvon on top of him and
no place to retreat — or whether, in the other version of events,
Zimmerman initiated the attack — the Stand Your Ground law is not relevant.

The media have also been busy painting a picture that an epidemic
of justifiable homicides has erupted since these laws have passed.
The Wall Street Journal ran a story suggesting that an increase in
justifiable homicides nationwide from 176 in 2000 to 326 in 2010
arose from a “shoot first” mentality, but part of that increase is just
a trick of numbers; it occurs because the laws have reclassified
what is considered “self-defense,” not because more people are being shot
.

In addition, the numbers for 2000 (and 2005) are artificially low
compared with other years because relatively few states actually
reported justifiable homicides. Using the FBI Uniform Crime Report
in 2000, justifiable homicides were counted by the FBI for 30 states.
In 2010, the number of states counted was 35 and which states
reported the numbers also changed.

Curiously, though, this went unnoticed: Over the same period of time,
there has been an increase in justifiable killings by police and there
are no similar data problems here, no changing definitions or large
changes in jurisdictions reporting. Between 2000 and 2010, the FBI’s
Uniform Crime Reports show that justifiable police killings rose by 25%,
rising to 387 from 309, suggesting that something else is occurring.

The breathless coverage of Stand Your Ground completely ignores
the most important issue: Have these laws increased total deaths?
If more criminals are killed in justifiable self-defense — but the
number of innocent lives lost falls by more than the deaths of
criminals rise — is that really a bad thing?

The third edition of my book “More Guns, Less Crime” provides the
only published, refereed academic study on these laws. I found that
deterrence works. In states adopting Stand Your Ground and Castle
Doctrine laws from 1977 to 2005, murder rates fell by 9% and overall
violent crime by 11%. This would mean an annual drop in murders
that is about 10 times more than the entire flawed, measured
increase in civilian justifiable homicides from 2000 to 2010.

The push to undo these state laws never discusses why they were
adopted in the first place. Forcing victims to take time to retreat
can put their lives in jeopardy, and a prosecutor might draw the line
differently on whether a victim had retreated sufficiently
.
Law-abiding citizens are hardly the trigger-happy individuals the media
paint them to be. With national surveys showing about 2 million
defensive gun uses a year, the number of justifiable homicides is amazingly small.
With 41 states having either Stand Your Ground- or Castle Doctrine-type
laws — and an additional six having common-law versions of these
rules — the amazing fact is that literally only a few questionable
cases over the past decade can be pointed to by the media, and
even those cases are debatable.

Lott is a former chief economist at the United States Sentencing Commission
and the author of the third edition of “More Guns, Less Crime.”

[All emfasis has been added by David.]
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 10:48 am
@OmSigDAVID,
No, it doesn't make sense. It only makes sense if the majority of your fellow citizens were felons and criminals. Most of the other criminals are already serving time in jail or prisons; that's what they were created for.

An individual is not prosecutor and executioner; that's a danger to society.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 11:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
No, it doesn't make sense.
It only makes sense if the majority of your fellow citizens
were felons and criminals.
Felons AND criminals, both, huh???




cicerone imposter wrote:
Most of the other criminals are already serving time in jail or prisons;
that's what they were created for.
So, according to u: there r only a few criminals left free on the outside, right ??????



cicerone imposter wrote:
An individual is not prosecutor and executioner; that's a danger to society.
OK; I got a terrific idea:
if u get mugged,
just let criminals do ANYTHING thay want to u
and to your family
. Be docile, and don 't resist them.
If any of your family members (e.g., your wife or child)
chooses to resist, tell them: "No, it doesn't make sense. . . ."

Let us know how that works out for u.

Do the members of your family consider u to be a coward, C.I. ??





David
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 11:16 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Felons AND criminals, both, huh???


Wouldn't "logic" compel you to explain, Om?

Wouldn't your standing as a "native" speaker of English give you a grasp of the nuance between 'felon' and 'criminal'.

If your native speaker senses failed you, one would expect, logically, that law school, and, just possibly, a career in law, would have clued you in to the distinction that exists between the words felon and criminal.

Quote:
An individual is not prosecutor and executioner; that's a danger to society.


You failed to address CI's question. Up a stump as you are, you've ignored the central issue and headed off on another of your famous illogical tangents.

While you may be a native speaker and a lawyer, you sure got shorted in the native intelligence department.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 11:30 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
OK; I got a terrific idea:


Doesn't this offend your well developed "sense of logic", Om?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 11:32 am
@JTT,
DAVID wrote:
Felons AND criminals, both, huh???
JTT wrote:
Wouldn't "logic" compel you to explain, Om?
Yes. It woud not and it does not.





David
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 11:49 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
DAVID wrote:
Felons AND criminals, both, huh???


Quote:
JTT wrote:
Wouldn't "logic" compel you to explain, Om?


Quote:
Yes. It woud not and it does not.


You've spelled 'woud' wrong, Om, it's 'wud'. Smile

You, with your "logic", have always maintained that a simple 'yes' would suffice, and in this, [bells and whistles] you are right - for once, Dave.

Quote:
JTT wrote:
Wouldn't "logic" compel you to explain, Om?


Quote:
Yes.


But we all know that you are just using this bogus description of how English works with respect to negative questions to dodge [can you say tangent?] something that you REALLY should have known - recognizing that there is a difference between felon and criminal.

Honesty just ain't you, Dave.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 02:30 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
David, The school that educated you in law did a disservice to this country. Your skills at the English language leaves much to be desired, but more so as an attorney.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 03:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Your skills at the English language leaves much to be desired, but more so as an attorney.


David is certainly skilled enough at using English, CI, though his arguments are often rather juvenile. The distinction that must be made is his [or anyone's] ability to describe the grammar, the actual workings of language.

In this, he is as bad as most native speakers are. It's well known among the language community that studies language that native speakers are bad at describing how their language works.

This, of course, has been further complicated by the nonsense about language that has been taught to people like, well, like all of us.

David's skills with language are focused on deceiving, not on seeking the truth but that's because that has been his whole life as a lawyer.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 03:11 pm
@JTT,

Quote:
DAVID wrote:
Felons AND criminals, both, huh???


Quote:
JTT wrote:
Wouldn't "logic" compel you to explain, Om?


Quote:
Yes. It woud not and it does not.


JTT wrote:
You've spelled 'woud' wrong, Om, it's 'wud'. Smile
Yes. I have been inconsistent in my spelling thereof.
I shud be satisfied to spell it the short way.
I shud resume doing that.





David
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 29 Apr, 2012 03:33 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Who says you never tackle the difficult language issues, Dave? Rolling Eyes

See, I told you, CI. Deception is Om's primary motivator.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  4  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2012 08:47 am
Have we talked about this?
If so, never mind.
~~
For what purpose does a neighborhood watch volunteer carry a gun?
Much more effective items to carry would be a camera and a cellphone.
When I witnessed two men breaking into the building behind mine, those were the two items I used to 1) record what they looked like and 2) call in the police.
They were arrested on scene.
I had to identify my photo at the grand jury as being the one I took.

I felt no need to confront the two men. Nor would I if there had only been one person.
~~
For what purpose did the neighborhood watch volunteer apparently stop watching and start confronting the person he thought was suspicious?
That seems so odd to me. So much better to remain hidden from the view of those you suspect while continuing to observe, keeping the police aware of your location and description (you don't want them confronting you)...

So why did the Neighborhood Watch become the Neighborhood Angel of Death?

Joe(or whatever)Nation
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2012 09:02 am
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
Have we talked about this?
If so, never mind.
~~
For what purpose does a neighborhood watch volunteer carry a gun?
The same as for everyone: guns r health insurance.
Everyone is wise to carry some.




Joe Nation wrote:
Much more effective items to carry would be a camera and a cellphone.
When I witnessed two men breaking into the building behind mine,
those were the two items I used to 1) record what they looked like and 2) call in the police.
They were arrested on scene.
I had to identify my photo at the grand jury as being the one I took.

I felt no need to confront the two men. Nor would I if there had only been one person.
~~
For what purpose did the neighborhood watch volunteer apparently stop watching
He closed his eyes?? No wonder Mr. T cud grab him.



Joe Nation wrote:
and start confronting the person he thought was suspicious?
That seems so odd to me. So much better to remain hidden from the view of those you suspect while continuing to observe,
keeping the police aware of your location and description (you don't want them confronting you)...

So why did the Neighborhood Watch become the Neighborhood Angel of Death?
Because Mr. T insisted upon pounding Zimmy's brain against the cement sidewalk. That can be unhealthy.





David
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Apr, 2012 10:34 am
@OmSigDAVID,
David, You're so confused that you call guns "health insurance." It's a death penalty! Forget health.
0 Replies
 
 

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