Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

@oralloy,

Now you say that you know what the entire rest of the world means by "depraved mind," and that somehow this mystical knowledge of yours trumps the actual Florida statute that Zimmerman's being prosecuted under.

Maybe you ought to be looking up words like "ludicrous," "grandiose."

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

So in other words if someone acts in a callous fashion with a loaded gun that leads to the death of another that is 2nd degree murder.

Probably (in any state that defines second degree murder as Depraved Heart Murder). But your term "in a callous fashion" might be a bit too broad. The key is gambling with someone else's life.

parados wrote:

Zimmerman loaded a gun. He went out with it even though he shouldn't have when performing neighborhood watch duties. He followed someone he thought might be committing a crime and did so even though advised not to and neighborhood watch rules so to not follow.

Where is your evidence that he continued to follow, after the dispatcher advised him that they did not need him to do that?

parados wrote:

That leads to the conclusion that it fits the definition of 2nd degree murder.

Even if it could be shown that he provoked the violence with Trayvon, that would just make it manslaughter.

parados wrote:

Zimmerman committed a series of acts that when totaled can show he had a complete disregard for safety of others. He showed a callous disregard when he ignored the protocol of not carrying a gun when on neighborhood watch. He showed a callous disregard when he followed Martin instead of staying in the car. It is not a single act. It is the totality of what Zimmerman did that leads to the charge of 2nd degree.

No. You have to knowingly be taking a serious gamble with someone's life to rise to the required level. Nothing Zimmerman did came even close to deliberately gambling with someone's life.

Had he shot Trayon for no particular reason (knowing that he was in no danger from Trayvon, but intending to wound him), that would count as gambling with his life.

But it seems clear that Zimmerman did feel he was in danger.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Had he shot Trayon for no particular reason (knowing that he was in no danger from Trayvon, but intending to wound him), that would count as gambling with his life.

WTF does that have to do with 2nd degree murder?

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@parados,

Oralloy also overlooks the fact that Zimmerman was influenced and motivated by his own inaccurate and biased perceptions of Martin from the moment he spotted Martin until the moment he shot and killed him. It was Zimmerman's mind-set, that Martin was some sort of criminal, that influenced everything Zimmerman did, and also influenced Zimmerman's perception of the threat Martin posed to his life, and why he shot him.

Those distorted and biased perceptions on Zimmerman's part are also evidence of a "depraved mind"--Zimmerman felt fully justified in pulling that trigger because he didn't see Martin as an innocent kid he had just frightened and menaced with his behaviors, he felt he was shooting someone he thought was a criminal. Zimmerman's mind-set and perceptions of Martin were never based in reality. Martin really was an innocent kid on his way home from the store--it was what went on in Zimmerman's mind--his "depraved mind"--that caused him to distort reality, and compelled him to pursue and confront this innocent kid, and to use lethal force, without adequate justification.

Quote:

It is the totality of what Zimmerman did that leads to the charge of 2nd degree.

You are very correct about that. Oralloy can't see or understand that.

1 Reply

@parados,

Orally apparently believes that if he shows that this was not a "depraved heart murder" that it magically also proves that it is not 2nd degree murder under the Florida statute.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Quote:

But it seems clear that Zimmerman did feel he was in danger.

So there is no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin in spite of the evidence that Zimmerman was not in his car when he shot Martin but you somehow can claim there is clear evidence that Zimmerman felt he was in danger?

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I have read the Florida law, and it does not match with what you're describing.

Now you're making stuff up again. You've already admitted that you are too ignorant to actually know if there is a difference.

DrewDad wrote:

I have no need to research your blather.

Describing facts as blather does not prevent them from being facts.

DrewDad wrote:

God, you're boring.

Sounds like your efforts at denying reality are tiring you out.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Now you say that you know what the entire rest of the world means by "depraved mind," and that somehow this mystical knowledge of yours

Hardly mystical. Just because you like to wallow in ignorance doesn't mean that an education is anything particularly unusual.

DrewDad wrote:

knowledge of yours trumps the actual Florida statute that Zimmerman's being prosecuted under.

No. "Pointing out what the statute actually means" is hardly "trumping the statute".

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@parados,

parados wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Had he shot Trayon for no particular reason (knowing that he was in no danger from Trayvon, but intending to wound him), that would count as gambling with his life.

WTF does that have to do with 2nd degree murder?

In a state where second degree murder is Depraved Heart Murder, it has everything to do with it.

Depraved Heart Murder is when someone does not intend to kill anyone, but they knowingly gamble with people's lives by doing something that very clearly might kill them.

Shooting someone is something that might cause death. So if Zimmerman callously shot Trayvon for no reason, that would count as gambling with his life.

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

It was Zimmerman's mind-set, that Martin was some sort of criminal, that influenced everything Zimmerman did, and also influenced Zimmerman's perception of the threat Martin posed to his life, and why he shot him.

Those distorted and biased perceptions on Zimmerman's part are also evidence of a "depraved mind"

No. Evidence for a depraved mind would be if Zimmerman were callously gambling with Trayvon's life for no reason.

0 Replies

@parados,

parados wrote:

So there is no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin in spite of the evidence that Zimmerman was not in his car when he shot Martin but you somehow can claim there is clear evidence that Zimmerman felt he was in danger?

Yes.

Well, mostly yes. I am not saying there is no evidence that he continued to pursue. I'm just asking for that evidence to be presented, if it exists.

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@oralloy,

What a sad little hand waver you are.

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@DrewDad,

The only reason Trayvon is dead is that he attacked Zimmerman for daring to exercise his rights to follow anyone he would care to on the public streets.

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Depraved Heart Murder is when someone does not intend to kill anyone, but they knowingly gamble with people's lives by doing something that very clearly might kill them.

Zimmerman gambled with Martin's life by creating a situation through his careless actions. Without the actions of Zimmerman Martin would not have died. You want to ignore all of Zimmerman's actions. 2nd degree murder doesn't do that. If we can ignore actions leading up to the actual pulling of the trigger than Russian roulette can't be second degree murder and yet it is.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

The only reason Trayvon is dead is that he attacked Zimmerman for daring to exercise his rights to follow anyone he would care to on the public streets.

You don't have the right to follow anyone you want to. Nor do you have the right to cause a confrontation and then shoot the person you provoked because you felt threatened by them after you provoked them.

1 Reply

@parados,

Quote:

Zimmerman gambled with Martin's life by creating a situation through his careless actions. Without

LOL if some hoodlum attacked someone who is wearing a gold rolex watch and as a resulted end up dead we should charge the rolex watch wearer with murder as but for him wearing the watch the hoodlum would not had attacked and gotten killed.

After all the watch wearer had created the situation!!!!!!!!!!

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Quote:

The only reason Trayvon is dead is that he attacked Zimmerman for daring to exercise his rights to follow anyone he would care to on the public streets.

In the first place, this incident didn't take place on a public street. It occurred within a private residential gated community--where Martin had a perfect right to be, and where this minor had a perfect right to walk around without being followed or menaced by anyone--particularly an armed adult.

Saying that Zimmerman exercised " his rights to follow anyone he would care to" inside that complex is a little like saying he had a right to stretch out on the railroad tracks just before a train was due--yeah, he'd have a "right" to do that, but he'd also risk getting hit by a train. Zimmerman also had a "right" to transfer his assets, and try to conceal them from his lawyer and the court--but he would up getting symbolically punched by the judge for doing that too--because he exercised very poor judgment and took a risk that backfired on him in that instance too. Zimmerman's a very provocative man.

While people, like Zimmerman, may have a "right" to do stupid and provocative things, that doesn't excuse them from the consequences of their poor judgment or distorted perceptions.

If Martin "attacked" Zimmerman, which is highly questionable, it was because Zimmerman's behavior appeared menacing and threatening to him.

When an unknown adult begins watching you, and then following you, and then winds up confronting you, in a dark and deserted area, with no other people around, and you are a teenage kid simply coming back from the store, and you have no idea what this nut is after or up to, the logical reaction is to feel threatened, and to defend yourself. And the last thing Martin's girlfriend heard him say was, "Get off of me," suggesting that Zimmerman did something beside just walk up to Martin, and something that would have provoked a defensive physical reaction from him.

Zimmerman had unjustified animosity toward Martin from the moment he spotted him--he profiled Martin, based only on his appearance, and saw him as an undesirable criminal element in that housing complex, and he didn't want this one to elude the police, and that mind-set determined everything else that Zimmerman did--including shooting him. Animus toward the victim is an element of 2nd degree murder.

Trayvon Martin is dead because Zimmerman couldn't control himself and remain in his vehicle until the police responded to his call.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

What a sad little hand waver you are.

I see you have no argument against any of my facts.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Oralloy apparently believes that if he shows that this was not a "depraved heart murder" that it magically also proves that it is not 2nd degree murder under the Florida statute.

Well, yes.

(That belief comes from actually knowing what I'm talking about.)

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@parados,

parados wrote:

Oralloy wrote:
Depraved Heart Murder is when someone does not intend to kill anyone, but they knowingly gamble with people's lives by doing something that very clearly might kill them.

Zimmerman gambled with Martin's life by creating a situation through his careless actions. Without the actions of Zimmerman Martin would not have died. You want to ignore all of Zimmerman's actions. 2nd degree murder doesn't do that.

No. It requires a concrete intention to risk someone's life, or intention to do something you know is clearly risking someone's life.

parados wrote:

If we can ignore actions leading up to the actual pulling of the trigger than Russian roulette can't be second degree murder and yet it is.

Russian roulette involves a concrete intention to risk someone's life.

3 Replies

Do you think Zimmerman will be convicted of murder?

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