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'One-State' Idea Gains Support Of Some Palestinians

 
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 08:05 pm
@oralloy,
Oralloy, I don't accept that one inscription in a stone is evidence that someone had a meaningful conversation with shrubbery. Since Egypt was the powerful empire of the time and had both trade and conquest, there is a simple explanation that they made have known about the gods of many cultures.

But let me pretend for a moment that I accept the historical accuracy of the Bible. How would that affect the discussion. In the Book of Joshua, the Israelites invade Canaan. A land that is clearly inhabited at the time (according to the Bible).

God orders that these people be slaughtered including women and children and livestock. Joshua fails to do completely murder them all, and in the book of Judges these inhabitants remain "to test" them.

So accepting your mythology makes it even worse. The Palestinians were in the land when Israel invaded (in a pretty barbaric way). They were there first.

I think the scientific view, where modern Israelis and Palestinians both descend from the original Canaanites.

The Bible story accuses the Jews of committing genocide.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 09:14 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Oralloy, I don't accept that one inscription in a stone is evidence that someone had a meaningful conversation with shrubbery.


Solid proof that there was a deity named YHW in that exact spot (and nowhere else), is confirmation of the Jews' claims that that was the spot where they first converted to their new religion.



maxdancona wrote:
Since Egypt was the powerful empire of the time and had both trade and conquest, there is a simple explanation that they made have known about the gods of many cultures.


Yes. Exactly. That is why they are considered reliable proof backing the Israeli account.



maxdancona wrote:
But let me pretend for a moment that I accept the historical accuracy of the Bible. How would that affect the discussion.


We'd probably stop arguing about the Bible and get back to the fact that the Palestinians are the only ones who are refusing to make peace.



maxdancona wrote:
In the Book of Joshua, the Israelites invade Canaan. A land that is clearly inhabited at the time (according to the Bible).

God orders that these people be slaughtered including women and children and livestock. Joshua fails to do completely murder them all, and in the book of Judges these inhabitants remain "to test" them.

So accepting your mythology makes it even worse. The Palestinians were in the land when Israel invaded (in a pretty barbaric way). They were there first.


Are you suggesting that the Palestinians were the Canaanites???



maxdancona wrote:
I think the scientific view, where modern Israelis and Palestinians both descend from the original Canaanites.


Not sure they descended from the Canaanites, but yes. The DNA you linked previously does indicate that they descended from the same group, and split away from each other before the dawn of the Iron Age.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Sep, 2012 11:04 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The text about the escaped slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible.


That doesn't make it scientific nor archaeological.


Old writings have no value to archaeology?

I guess there is no science to be learned from Egyptian hieroglyphs either?


If old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs conform to science then they're scientific.

There are a lot of misrepresentations, redactions, etc. in the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs as well. Old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs must conform to science. Trying to conform science to old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs is what theists attempt to do when trying to prove the historicity of the Bible.

oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
And Egyptian records clearly show a deity named YHW in the area where Moses was said to have had his conversation with the Burning Bush.


The existence of a cult of YHWH isn't in question here. The Exodus myth is in question. What does this have to do with the Exodus myth?


The Bible claims that the conversation with the Burning Bush took place in a very specific place (in the land of the Shasu).

Archaeology proves that there was a local deity named YHW in that exact specific place, and nowhere else (until the Israelites popped up well to the north).


There were various groups of Shasu that are referred to at a temple from the time of Amenhotep III who were listed as enemies of the state. One was the Shasu of YHW.

There is no mention of an exodus of Israelite slaves out of Egypt, however.

Quote:
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
All we know for sure is that the slaves succeeded in escaping.


According to the mythology, sure, but what about the science and archaeology? Where is this reference, outside of the mythology, to escaped slaves?


The fact that you want to label ancient writings as "mythology" does not mean they have no archaeological value.


So then, where's the archaeological evidence for an Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt?

Quote:
What is your alternative scenario?


There was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.

Quote:
That the Egyptians had some magical means to prevent any slaves from ever escaping?


There was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.

Quote:
That when the Bronze Age ended, the Israelites suddenly migrated down to visit the Shasu and converted to their religion, then re-migrated back home?

But then they decided that no one must ever know of this migration, so they crafted a cover story of escaped slaves passing through the lands of the Shasu?


Apparently, if the Shasu of YHW refers to a YHWH cult of the Levant, then that cult had been there since at least those times.

With that said, there was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.

Quote:
Seems more reasonable that a group of escaped slaves passed through the area and converted, and then their new religion proved to be a big hit once they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.


Uh, no.

What's more reasonable is that there was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt. Instead the latter Bible redactors (i.e. the Deuteronomist) recycled an ancient Canaanite origin myth from the earlier times to fit their religious, political and social agenda: the promotion of the YHWH cult to exclusivity during the time of the repopulation of Jerusalem.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 01:53 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
The text about the escaped slaves crossing the Red Sea is the oldest part of the Bible.


That doesn't make it scientific nor archaeological.


Old writings have no value to archaeology?

I guess there is no science to be learned from Egyptian hieroglyphs either?


If old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs conform to science then they're scientific.


Archaeologists often use ancient writings (that seldom tell the whole truth) in their efforts to piece together what the truth was.



InfraBlue wrote:
There are a lot of misrepresentations, redactions, etc. in the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs as well.


But scientists and archaeologists still make good use of them.



InfraBlue wrote:
Old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs must conform to science. Trying to conform science to old writings and Egyptian hieroglyphs is what theists attempt to do when trying to prove the historicity of the Bible.


What archaeologists try to do is use old writings to help to piece together what the truth is.



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
And Egyptian records clearly show a deity named YHW in the area where Moses was said to have had his conversation with the Burning Bush.


The existence of a cult of YHWH isn't in question here. The Exodus myth is in question. What does this have to do with the Exodus myth?


The Bible claims that the conversation with the Burning Bush took place in a very specific place (in the land of the Shasu).

Archaeology proves that there was a local deity named YHW in that exact specific place, and nowhere else (until the Israelites popped up well to the north).


There were various groups of Shasu that are referred to at a temple from the time of Amenhotep III who were listed as enemies of the state. One was the Shasu of YHW.

There is no mention of an exodus of Israelite slaves out of Egypt, however.


There didn't have to be a mention of it. The proof that YHW was in the exact spot where the Bible says the escaped slaves converted, is still evidence backing their story of how they converted.



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
All we know for sure is that the slaves succeeded in escaping.


According to the mythology, sure, but what about the science and archaeology? Where is this reference, outside of the mythology, to escaped slaves?


The fact that you want to label ancient writings as "mythology" does not mean they have no archaeological value.


So then, where's the archaeological evidence for an Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt?


There is the textual analysis showing that the part about the slaves escaping being the oldest part of the Bible.

There is the archaeological evidence proving that YHW was the local deity right in the exact spot where the Israelites say they converted.

And there is the archaeological evidence showing that this is the time when the Israelites came onto the world stage.



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
What is your alternative scenario?


There was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.


How did the Egyptians prevent any slaves from ever escaping?

Did they do it with super-powered magic?

Or maybe they had alien space technology from the future?



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
That the Egyptians had some magical means to prevent any slaves from ever escaping?


There was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.


Yes, but where is your explanation for this magical means by which Egypt prevented any slaves from escaping?



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
That when the Bronze Age ended, the Israelites suddenly migrated down to visit the Shasu and converted to their religion, then re-migrated back home?

But then they decided that no one must ever know of this migration, so they crafted a cover story of escaped slaves passing through the lands of the Shasu?


Apparently, if the Shasu of YHW refers to a YHWH cult of the Levant, then that cult had been there since at least those times.


The Shasu were well south of the Israelites.

If you are going to deny the straightforward historical explanation for how the religion of the Shasu suddenly jumped up to the north and started being followed by the Israelites, you might want to come up with some explanation as to how it happened.



InfraBlue wrote:
With that said, there was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt.


Science and archaeology says otherwise.

And you've not come up with a plausible alternative explanation as to how the religion of the Shasu suddenly jumped far to the north to be embraced by an entirely different people.



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Seems more reasonable that a group of escaped slaves passed through the area and converted, and then their new religion proved to be a big hit once they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.


Uh, no.

What's more reasonable is that there was no Israelite slave exodus out of Egypt. Instead the latter Bible redactors (i.e. the Deuteronomist) recycled an ancient Canaanite origin myth from the earlier times to fit their religious, political and social agenda: the promotion of the YHWH cult to exclusivity during the time of the repopulation of Jerusalem.


If you really think it is so unreasonable that slaves could ever escape from Egypt, then perhaps you could explain the magical means that Egypt used to achieve that.

And the YHW cult was well to the south of the Israelites. You are also pretty thin on your explanation as to how an unrelated people far to the north suddenly started worshiping that deity.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 09:52 am
@oralloy,
O-kay.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 10:02 am
@InfraBlue,
Oralboy just talks nonsense.

Quote:
In the first part of January the media began breaking the news that the old yarn about slaves having built the pyramids had finally been dispelled. Dr. Zahi Hawass of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities announced that three large tombs had been newly discovered very close to the pyramid itself. As the final resting place of some of the overseers of the workforce, both the structure and location of the tombs made it clear that these were no slaves.

Dr. Hawass’ statement that “These tombs were built beside the king’s pyramid, which indicates that these people were not by any means slaves” (source) was widely repeated in the press under headlines announcing that the belief that slaves had built the pyramids could now be retired. But Egyptologists have long known that the Slave Hypothesis was pure Hollywood.


<br /> http://emhotep.net/2010/02/09/locations/lower-egypt/giza-plateau-lower-egypt/who-built-the-pyramids-part-1-the-lost-city-of-the-pyramid-builders/

Terry Jones, (not the bigot, but he of Monty Python fame) has produced a very informative documentary about this. He finds some old papyrus records, and one of the workers took a day off to brew beer, hardly the actions of a slave.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 03:20 pm
@izzythepush,
The Israeli archaeologist, Israel Finkelstein, has written some very good books in regard to the archaeology in that area and how it relates to the Bible.

Some of them are The Quest for the Historical Israel; The Archaeology of the United Monarchy an Alternative View, and David and Solomon, In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 04:09 pm
@InfraBlue,
Testament by John Romer is very good too.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 06:02 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
O-kay.


So you have no explanation as to how your extreme claims could even work.

I guess that was inevitable, given that you were arguing against science and archaeology from the start.

Next time maybe consider siding with the scientists. It'll work out better for you.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 06:04 pm
@izzythepush,
izzytheNazi wrote:
Oralboy just talks nonsense.


The fact that you are too stupid to understand science and archaeology does not mean it is nonsense.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 17 Sep, 2012 08:47 pm
@izzythepush,
izzytheNazi wrote:
Quote:
In the first part of January the media began breaking the news that the old yarn about slaves having built the pyramids had finally been dispelled. Dr. Zahi Hawass of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities announced that three large tombs had been newly discovered very close to the pyramid itself. As the final resting place of some of the overseers of the workforce, both the structure and location of the tombs made it clear that these were no slaves.

Dr. Hawass’ statement that “These tombs were built beside the king’s pyramid, which indicates that these people were not by any means slaves” (source) was widely repeated in the press under headlines announcing that the belief that slaves had built the pyramids could now be retired. But Egyptologists have long known that the Slave Hypothesis was pure Hollywood.


http://emhotep.net/2010/02/09/locations/lower-egypt/giza-plateau-lower-egypt/who-built-the-pyramids-part-1-the-lost-city-of-the-pyramid-builders/

Terry Jones, (not the bigot, but he of Monty Python fame) has produced a very informative documentary about this. He finds some old papyrus records, and one of the workers took a day off to brew beer, hardly the actions of a slave.


I don't know what is funnier

a) that you think evidence about pyramid construction somehow contradicts anything I've said (I wasn't talking about anything even remotely related to the pyramids)

or

b) that you think that evidence of middle-class artisans is somehow evidence that there were no slaves involved (really, Izzy, just leave the logic to those of us who have brains)


Actually, I think the funniest part is that you even think you have a place in a discussion of scientific issues.

Mr. Green Mr. Green Mr. Green Drunk
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 10:12 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
O-kay.


So you have no explanation as to how your extreme claims could even work.


What's extreme is trying to defend a needless exodus from Egypt to establish a cult that had already existed in Canaan.

Quote:
I guess that was inevitable, given that you were arguing against science and archaeology from the start.

Next time maybe consider siding with the scientists. It'll work out better for you.


The science and archaeology indicates that there was no slave exodus from Egypt, your ridiculous assertions notwithstanding.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 03:40 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
O-kay.


So you have no explanation as to how your extreme claims could even work.


What's extreme is trying to defend a needless exodus from Egypt to establish a cult that had already existed in Canaan.


Wrong. The cult did not already exist in Canaan.

Egyptian records make it clear that YHW was a local deity in the land of the Shasu, and nowhere else.

And you've so far offered no alternative explanation as to how that local religion suddenly jumped way to the north to be worshiped by a completely unrelated people, despite repeated requests for your alternative scenario.



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy wrote:
I guess that was inevitable, given that you were arguing against science and archaeology from the start.

Next time maybe consider siding with the scientists. It'll work out better for you.


The science and archaeology indicates that there was no slave exodus from Egypt


Nope. Science and archaeology strongly indicate a scenario where some slaves escaped from Egypt, converted to a new religion on their way home, and their new religion was a big hit when they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.

Your repeated failure to explain how your own claims could even work, also helps to confirm the escape off the slaves.



InfraBlue wrote:
your ridiculous assertions notwithstanding.


There is nothing ridiculous about me pointing out scientific and archaeological findings.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 04:59 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy" wrote:
The cult did not already exist in Canaan.

Egyptian records make it clear that YHW was a local deity in the land of the Shasu, and nowhere else.

And you've so far offered no alternative explanation as to how that local religion suddenly jumped way to the north to be worshiped by a completely unrelated people, despite repeated requests for your alternative scenario.


You need to read your own references, oralloy.

From your very own reference:

Quote:
Shasu (Š3sw, probably pronounced Shaswe) is an Egyptian word for semitic-speaking pastoral cattle nomads who appeared in the Levant from the late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age or Third Intermediate Period of Egypt. They were organized in clans under a tribal chieftain, and were described as brigands active from the Jezreel Valley to Ashkelon and the Sinai.[emphasis mine]


This is the general area that the Canaanites inhabited.

These pastoral nomads roamed the entire area of the Levant. There was no need to go to Egypt to establish their cult in the Levant.

Quote:
Science and archaeology strongly indicate a scenario where some slaves escaped from Egypt, converted to a new religion on their way home, and their new religion was a big hit when they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.


You know, you're contradicting your own reference E:\NOVA The Bible's Buried Secrets transcript.mht:

Quote:
The Bible says the Israelites leave Egypt in a mass migration, 600,000 men and their families, and then wander in the desert for 40 years. But even assuming the Bible is exaggerating, in a hundred years of searching, archaeologists have not yet found evidence of migration that can be linked to the Exodus.


So, where's this contradictory reference for your assertions?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Sep, 2012 10:01 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy" wrote:
The cult did not already exist in Canaan.

Egyptian records make it clear that YHW was a local deity in the land of the Shasu, and nowhere else.

And you've so far offered no alternative explanation as to how that local religion suddenly jumped way to the north to be worshiped by a completely unrelated people, despite repeated requests for your alternative scenario.


You need to read your own references, oralloy.

From your very own reference:

Quote:
Shasu (Š3sw, probably pronounced Shaswe) is an Egyptian word for semitic-speaking pastoral cattle nomads who appeared in the Levant from the late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age or Third Intermediate Period of Egypt. They were organized in clans under a tribal chieftain, and were described as brigands active from the Jezreel Valley to Ashkelon and the Sinai.[emphasis mine]


This is the general area that the Canaanites inhabited.

These pastoral nomads roamed the entire area of the Levant. There was no need to go to Egypt to establish their cult in the Levant.


The lands of the Shasu were south of Israel. But the claim that "the Shasu were roving nomads that traveled up into Israel" leads to an intriguing possibility. Perhaps those particular Shasu were the escaped slaves.



InfraBlue wrote:
oralloy" wrote:
Science and archaeology strongly indicate a scenario where some slaves escaped from Egypt, converted to a new religion on their way home, and their new religion was a big hit when they got back home just in time for the collapse of the Bronze Age.


You know, you're contradicting your own reference E:\NOVA The Bible's Buried Secrets transcript.mht:

Quote:
The Bible says the Israelites leave Egypt in a mass migration, 600,000 men and their families, and then wander in the desert for 40 years. But even assuming the Bible is exaggerating, in a hundred years of searching, archaeologists have not yet found evidence of migration that can be linked to the Exodus.


There is no contradiction between that and what I've said. They are only denying a large-scale migration of 600,000 families that roamed for 40 years.

I am talking about a small group of slaves, and one that may not have wasted much time in getting back home.



InfraBlue wrote:
So, where's this contradictory reference for your assertions?


Well, neither my evidence nor my claims contradict it, but once again, here is the evidence:

Textual analysis shows that the slaves escaping across the Red Sea is the most ancient part of the Bible.

Egyptian records list YHW as being found in the lands of the Shasu, which matches up with the Bible's claim that the escaped slaved converted in the lands of the Shasu.

And Israel emerged into the historical records at this very time.
0 Replies
 
incognitoman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 01:53 pm
@oralloy - "But that has nothing to do with the Palestinians, who invaded nearly 2,000 years later. "

The Filistinians (Filisteens in the O.T. bible) pre-date the jews. And a one-state solution is coming - an Islamic one.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 02:38 pm
@incognitoman,
incognitoman wrote:
a one-state solution is coming - an Islamic one.


Not going to happen.

What is going to happen is: Israel is going to declare the Separation Fence their new border, and no one will be able to do a thing about it.
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Thu 7 Mar, 2013 11:27 pm
@oralloy,
Untill the Pals can get some real military hardware over the next 200 years and pay Israel back. Racial memory is long.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Fri 8 Mar, 2013 12:29 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
Untill the Pals can get some real military hardware over the next 200 years and pay Israel back. Racial memory is long.


If the Palestinians ever become a military threat to Israel, that military threat will be eradicated.
0 Replies
 
 

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