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Gay Marriage

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 10:26 am
Lightwizard wrote:
You're attributing perfection to a document the authors did not consider perfect.

No, I'm simply attributing to it the WEIGHT OF LAW, which is precisely what the authors intended. Those authors were clear about their intent. They EXPLICITLY denounce the notion that they intended to give broad powers through the "general welfare" (Federalist 41) and "necessary and proper" (Federalist 33) clauses. To argue otherwise is to stand in opposition to the express intent of the framers, not hand-in-hand with it. This isn't grey area stuff; Hamilton and Madison each wrote, in response to states that feared the newly proposed Constitution gave such broad powers and was open to the kind of "interpretation" you claim, that no such broad interpretation of the government's powers was intended.

Here are the salient sections from the above citations:

Hamilton in Federalist 33:
Quote:
The last clause of the eighth section of the first article of the plan under consideration authorizes the national legislature "to make all laws which shall be NECESSARY and PROPER for carrying into execution THE POWERS by that Constitution vested in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof''...

This simple train of inquiry furnishes us at once with a test by which to judge of the true nature of the clause complained of. It conducts us to this palpable truth, that a power to lay and collect taxes must be a power to pass all laws NECESSARY and PROPER for the execution of that power; and what does the unfortunate and culumniated provision in question do more than declare the same truth, to wit, that the national legislature, to whom the power of laying and collecting taxes had been previously given, might, in the execution of that power, pass all laws NECESSARY and PROPER to carry it into effect? I have applied these observations thus particularly to the power of taxation, because it is the immediate subject under consideration, and because it is the most important of the authorities proposed to be conferred upon the Union. But the same process will lead to the same result, in relation to all other powers declared in the Constitution. And it is EXPRESSLY to execute these powers that the sweeping clause, as it has been affectedly called, authorizes the national legislature to pass all NECESSARY and PROPER laws. If there is any thing exceptionable, it must be sought for in the specific powers upon which this general declaration is predicated.

Here, Hamilton is putting to rest the states' fears that the "necessary and proper" clause is a catch-all. Hamilton strongly decries this notion, stating emphatically that the clause refers specifically and only to a power to pass any laws necessary and proper to carrying out the powers specifically granted the government by the Constitution. Period.

Madison in Federalist 41:
Quote:
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare." No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases.
...
But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars.

Madison could not more clearly or eloquently quash the notion that the general welfare clause allows government the flexibility to take on powers not explicitly enumerated in the Constitution. To think otherwise is either to be ignorant of the facts of what Madison intended, or to simply care more for one's own personal opinion of how our federal government should work than one cares what form the Constitution allows that government to take.

==

So you see, the primary difference between my view of the Constitution and yours, is that mine is derived directly from what the framers tell us they meant, whereas yours is derived from what others have told you the Constitution means or from your own personal desires related thereto.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 10:52 am
And who would have believe adminsters the law? The framers created the Supreme Court for a purpose. Your selective quotes including what you want us to believe was Madison's intent are to marginally support your statement which has little to do with whether the framers created a flexible document and expected it to be rewritten and/or interpreted by those they would naturally have no control over.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 11:05 am
Lightwizard wrote:
And who would have believe adminsters the law? The framers created the Supreme Court for a purpose. Your selective quotes including what you want us to believe was Madison's intent are to marginally support your statement which has little to do with whether the framers created a flexible document and expected it to be rewritten and/or interpreted by those they would naturally have no control over.

My "selective quotes" were to save space. If you'd like me to cite these papers in their entirety, I can, but I assume you know how to click a hyperlink. Please read the entire letters and consider what is written there. If you are an intelligent man with a reasonable skill for reading comprehension you will see that these two were very clear about what they meant, and that they disagree with you.

That so many have chosen to ignore what they meant, does not change their meaning. You are of course welcome to continue to advocate that we ignore their intent, but to argue that they meant something else is to argue against the available facts.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 11:07 am
I have read all of Jefferson's writing as well as the Federalist Papers, so your order to do homework again will fall on deaf ears. You're interpretation is quite different from mine so we will have to agree to disagree.
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Scrat
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 11:20 am
Lightwizard wrote:
I have read all of Jefferson's writing as well as the Federalist Papers, so your order to do homework again will fall on deaf ears. You're interpretation is quite different from mine so we will have to agree to disagree.

I would love to have you explain how my citations can be "interpreted" to mean anything other than what I have stated, but it is clear to me that you are more enamored of your personal opinion than you are of the truth, so there is really no point in discussing this with you. Hamilton and Madison tell us EXACTLY what they meant, and that the ONLY powers the Constitution gives the federal government are those explicitly enumerated within the text (not imagined in the margins). That you prefer to think otherwise does not change that very plain fact.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 12:14 pm
Your version of the "truth" is as debatable as anyone's else. Your interpretations are as biased as anyone's. That's the plain truth and no exposition of your absolutism will give a different picture.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 12:38 pm
President calls for constitutional amendment protecting marriage
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 12:47 pm
I guess he's not read the dictionary either.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 12:51 pm
Bill Maher's take from his HBO show on 2/20 (all emphasis is mine):

Quote:
You can't claim you're the party of smaller government and then make laws about love. On this Valentine's Day, let's stop and ask ourselves what business is it of the state how consenting adults choose to pair off, share expenses and eventually stop having sex with each other. And why does the Bush Administration want a Constitutional amendment about weddings? Hey, why stop at weddings? Birthdays are important; let's put them in the great document. Let's make a law that gay people can have birthdays, but straight people get more cake. You know, to send the right message to kids.

Republicans are always saying we should privatize things like schools, prisons, Social Security. Hey, how about we privatize privacy? Because if the government forbids gay men from tying the knot, what is their alternative? They can't all marry Liza Minnelli.

You know, Republicans used to be the party that opposed social engineering. But now they push programs to outlaw marriage for some people and encourage it for others. If you're straight, there's a billion-five in the budget to promote marriage, but gay marriage is opposed because it threatens or mocks or does something to the "sanctity" of marriage, as if anything you can do in Vegas, drunk off your ass in front of an Elvis impersonator, could be considered sacred.

Half the people who pledge eternal love are doing it because one of them is either knocked up, rich or desperate. But in George Bush's mind, marriage is only a beautiful lifetime bond of love and sharing. Kind of like what his dad has with the Saudis. Please, I kid.

All right, but at least the right wing aren't hypocrites on this issue. They really believe that homosexuality is an abomination and a dysfunction that's curable. They believe that if a gay man just devotes his life to Jesus, he'll stop being gay, because that theory worked out so well with the Catholic priests.

But I have to tell you, the greater shame in this story goes to the Democrats, because they don't believe homosexuality is an abomination. And therefore, their refusal to endorse gay marriage is hypocrisy. Their position doesn't come from the Bible. It's ripped right from the latest poll, which says most Americans are against gay marriage.

Well, you know what? Sometimes most Americans are just wrong. And where is the Democrat who will stand up and go beyond the half measures of "civil union" and "hate the sin, love the sinner" and say loud and clear, "There is no sin; it's not an abomination and no one can control how cupid aims his arrows. And the ones who pretend they can usually turn out to be the biggest freaks."

The law in this country should reflect that some people are just born 100% outrageously, fabulously, undeniably, Fire Island gay! And they do not need reprogramming. They need a man with a slow hand!
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 12:57 pm
I saw that. Hilarious and totally on target.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 12:59 pm
Scrat wrote:
LW - The only flexibility intended was the ability to amend it when needed. If the Constitution were meant to simply be open to new interpretation any time it suited people, what would we need the amendment process for?

Not only is this wrong from a purely legal perspective, but from a historical perspective it's clear that even the framers didn't believe in this type of interpretation-proof constitution.

The constitution was designed to be flexible enough to cover situations not envisioned by the framers. That's what makes it a constitution, not a law-code. As John Marshall famously pointed out, "we must never forget it is a constitution we are expounding," adding that the constitution's "nature, therefore, requires that only its great outlines should be marked, its important objects designated, and the minor ingredients which compose those objects be deduced from the nature of the objects themselves."

To give an example: the constitution provides for congressional authority to secure "for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries." Pursuant to this clause, major league baseball can have a copyright on live broadcasts of baseball games. That's so even though the framers had no notion of baseball or television. Likewise, the constitution grants congress the power to regulate interstate commerce; so congress now has the power to regulate telemarketers, something that would have been utterly inconceivable for the framers of the constitution.

But it's clear that these "strict constructionists" are willing to interpret the constitution liberally, at least with respect to the Second Amendment. After all, if the term "arms" was meant to have the same meaning now that it had in 1787, private citizens would be limited to keeping and bearing single-shot muzzle-loading flintlock muskets.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 01:36 pm
Thank you joe. Finally, someone with the education and experience to see the obvious.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:28 pm
Joe - I agree with everything you just wrote. The key is that your example, as with the Marshall quote, goes to the authority of the government to pass laws necessary and proper to the execution of its specifically enumerated powers. As with Madison's example of the need to pass laws authorizing the collection of taxes, since that is necessary and proper to the government's specific, enumerated power to levy taxes, your example simply points out that the government has leeway in how it specifically carries out those powers it is specifically given. My point is that it can not legally, Constitutionally take on other powers outside of those specifically granted it.

So the good news is that while you're wrong about me being wrong, you're not wrong in your examples. Either you infer too great a flexibility (outside those enumerated powers) or you misunderstood my point. Cool
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:29 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Thank you joe. Finally, someone with the education and experience to see the obvious.

I'm sure that no one who disagrees with you has any education or experience. (Or rather, I'm sure it comforts you to think that.) Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:49 pm
What an arrogant little rodent.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:50 pm
<sung> That's Scrat! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:53 pm
For God's sake what's the argument here? That marrige is a sacred institution? Horseshit!!!!! More marriages end up in divorce than don't. People screw around like there's no tomorrow. People sign pre nups so they can keep their stuff when the marriage breaks up. Even the marriages that succeed. a great percentage of them are Civil cermonies.

Does it really matter who's sticking what into who? Because at the end of the day, that's what this is about...whos screwing who. Well who cares? Mind your business folks.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 02:58 pm
Personally, I lay the blame for infidelity on club musicians who induce women into bodice loosening frenzies! Mad
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patiodog
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 03:09 pm
and here i am with my doublet all unbraced
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Tue 24 Feb, 2004 03:20 pm
A poignard in your codpiece, young knave!
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