PILOT Bush 41 BAILS OUT AND LEFT GUNNER TO DIE

Ahhh.. Yeah. Rolling Eyes

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As a matter of a fact, NPR had an interview yesterday (i believe it was the program Fresh Air) with the author of Fly Boys, which recounts the incident in which the elder Bush was shot down.

Bush was piloting a TBF Avenger (TBF=Torpedo Bomber, Fleet), a late 1941 vintage aircraft with a crew of three. The mission the day he was shot down was to hit the transmitter station of Chi Chi Jima, which was a crucial communications station. The elite Emperor's Life Guard unit provided the anti-aircraft gunners to protect this island. Bush's aircraft was hit, and the engine began burning. At the risk of his own life, he put the aircraft into a long, climbing turn, which would blow the flames away from the fuselage, so that the other two crew members could escape. He recounted that he only saw one other crew member bail out, and that his parachute failed to open. He did not know if the other crew member bailed, but he was finally obliged to do so. He was fortunate that he came down in an area where an American submarine was operating, and was picked up.

The other aircrew who were shot down in attacks on Chi Chi Jima were eventually executed by beheading by the Imperial troops stationed there. If the other crew member did bail out, he likely did not survive. Bush's account of his actions during the raid were confirmed by other aircrew who survived the mission and returned to their carrier, San Jacinto.

I didn't think much of Geo. H. W. Bush as President, and i think his son is a disaster for this nation. That is not good cause to smear a man who enlisted to fight for his country, served honorably, and won a much deserved Distinguished Flying Cross.

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Hear hear, Dog (tipping chapeau)

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And such a very chic chapeau, PD . . .

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I have not been able to find information on the program at the NPR web site, so it might have been local programming. However, the book in question is:

Flyboys, James Bradley, Little, Brown and Company, 2003.

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Yeah. I don't like any of the Bushes, but this is a phony issue.

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Thank you for setting that record straight Setanta. If memory serves; a 20 year old George Bush then turned down an opportunity to go state-side and returned to the same unit. Folks, believe what you will about his presidency but a legitimate war hero he is.

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To Setanta--Senior Bush was never a Saint
I didn't think much of Geo. H. W. Bush as President, and i think his son is a disaster for this nation.(AGREE) That is not good cause to smear a man who enlisted to fight for his country, served honorably, and won a much deserved Distinguished Flying Cross. (-DISAGREE)
*************************************************************
IF only you witnessed the USA bombings and took hits, like I did ,from senseless bombing USA raids-----You would never have given them pilots any award. If you would like to hear my encounter with the bombings let me know.- George
Americans love to see bombings and the explosions and trigger happy pilots never return to see the killings.
Setanta---I read last week, that Austrailia honoured their para-troopers with High awards-- a cross of something and was done out of view from the public. Does it bother you that none of the USA media reported it?--Did these troopers deserve the Cross award?-- you be the Judge.
Embarrassed

48 hrs before Bush declared war on Iraq-he give Saddam and his sons to leave Iraq. However, PM Howard authorized secret landing (before48)before times-up and sent these troops to slit the throats of many 100's Iraqies gruarding bridges and military posts. Howards responce was that it was necessary, in that the scudes would be defused and Israel would be saved.
God help Americans.Yes!, they love to be loved but they are blind to the evil ones in control. Be patient--soon you will know about Papa Bush. I strongily recommend you read more about Bush41 and his push on the phonie gulf war. This man has a lot of crooked friends--like bin Ladden family..How did this family get so rich-?-you tell us. Only if you knew how and when and by whom all the Bushs got $bllions--you never say that anyone of them are good americans.

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Errr..real quick, and in hopes of avoiding initiating a flame war with Sentata:
TBF= Torpedo Bomber Grumman, not Torpedo Bomber FLeet.
Those aircraft built under liscence by Martin became TBM.
Further examples:
Grumman Fighters:
F4f, F6F, F8F (to late for service)
Chance Vought ("U")
F4U
Douglass("D")
SBD (Small Bomber, Douglass), R4D (Transport (also known as the DC-3)
Curtiss ("C)
SB2C (Small Bomber 2, Curtiss).
Hope I haven't stepped on any toes.

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Re: To Setanta--Senior Bush was never a Saint

geo1671 wrote:

I didn't think much of Geo. H. W. Bush as President, and i think his son is a disaster for this nation.(AGREE) That is not good cause to.................. them are good americans.

Geo,
I suggest that you try saying a statement outloud to a friend or even to yourself and see if it contains some sort of coherence before you start mashing keys.
I would like very much to have an intelligent discussion with you, but the rambling incoherence of your post makes it VERY difficult to understand what you are trying to say.

I suggest taking a breath, collecting your thoughts and then posting them. A2K made me feel quite at home when I joined (even the people that disagreed with me) and we would like to give you an opportunity to join us in the debate.

Just my 2 cents (pre tax)

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Er - Geo - why would Australia giving medals (if we did, I haven't heard of it) be a problem for the USA?

As for the other story - I believe that elite Australian commandoes WERE put in very early and hit a number ot Iraqi targets before the bombing etc started - presumably as part of a campaign that also included much larger numbers of US and British squads (our force being so much smaller than theirs). I also believe that such Australian troops would have been deployed as part of a broad plan - NOT independently of US command!!!!!

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I just read a half dozen pieces on "why G.H.W.B was no hero" and they all strike me as bunk. I'm sure the truth resides somewhere between his own tale and the tales of dissenters; but all tell me his acts were heroic if not perfect. Disputed facts are
1. Did Bush forget to switch from radio to intercom while repeatedly informing his crew they'd been hit (as if they wouldn't have known)?... This issue doesn't appear to have been raised until 40 years after the event and is hardly damning anyway. Whether it was an accidental oversight or equipment malfunction (or just plain fiction) doesn't really matter. The dissenter's assertion that he was heard repeatedly trying to address his men is clear indication that he intended on doing the right thing.
2. Did the hit cause smoke and fire or just smoke?... Where there is smoke, there is fire.
3. Could Bush have made a sea landing instead of bailing out? Bush had already performed a sea landing with that type of aircraft when there was an oil pressure failure. I seriously doubt he wouldn't have done so again if he thought he could. As a pilot who had already performed the procedure once, I can't imagine him not being qualified to make a good judgment call.
No one disputes the fact that he flew through a ****-storm of exploding anti-aircraft fire, even after his plane was hit, and delivered a successful strike on target with at least 2 of his 4 500lb bombs. No one disputes the fact that he had volunteered for the job, flown several bombing missions before the incident and returned a month later to resume doing his duty despite having an opportunity to transfer. These are the actions of a brave man, deserving of his honorable award, even if there is some truth to the dissenters' tales.
As for your experience with the bombing geo; I have no doubt that you would see this from a different perspective. But it is important to remember US Pilots do not set policy, they follow orders. Idea

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dlowan wrote:

I also believe that such Australian troops would have been deployed as part of a broad plan - NOT independently of US command!!!!!

The reason that the Australian and probably British Royal SAS SBS and all the other Special Ops units of Australia and the U.K. were the first in was this.

Contrary to the opinions of many of my fellow American countrymen, the American Special Forces, Rangers, SEALs and Force Recon are NOT the best trained Special Ops soldiers. That mantle falls upon the Special Ops soldiers of the U.K, Australia and Canada. They define the standard by which all other Special Ops soldiers are measured.

Just prior to any conflict, you send in Spec Ops to scout and infiltrate the enemies positions. Just prior to the attack, the S.O. soldiers knock out key command and control facilities, capture key positions and become 'force multipliers' well in excess of their actual numbers.

If I understand Geo's post, the Australians were sent in to capture key bridges (probably also to remove explosives that were set to destroy said bridges) and eliminate the defenders of those structures. Sounds to me like they earned their medals ... and probably a beer to boot.

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Re: To Setanta--Senior Bush was never a Saint

geo1671 wrote:

I didn't think much of Geo. H. W. Bush as President, and i think his son is a disaster for this nation.(AGREE) That is not good cause to smear a man who enlisted to fight for his country, served honorably, and won a much deserved Distinguished Flying Cross. (-DISAGREE)
*************************************************************
IF only you witnessed the USA bombings and took hits, like I did ,from senseless bombing USA raids-----You would never have given them pilots any award. If you would like to hear my encounter with the bombings let me know.- George
Americans love to see bombings and the explosions and trigger happy pilots never return to see the killings.
Setanta---I read last week, that Austrailia honoured their para-troopers with High awards-- a cross of something and was done out of view from the public. Does it bother you that none of the USA media reported it?--Did these troopers deserve the Cross award?-- you be the Judge.
48 hrs before Bush declared war on Iraq-he give Saddam and his sons to leave Iraq. However, PM Howard authorized secret landing (before48)before times-up and sent these troops to slit the throats of many 100's Iraqies gruarding bridges and military posts. Howards responce was that it was necessary, in that the scudes would be defused and Israel would be saved.
God help Americans.Yes!, they love to be loved but they are blind to the evil ones in control. Be patient--soon you will know about Papa Bush. I strongily recommend you read more about Bush41 and his push on the phonie gulf war. This man has a lot of crooked friends--like bin Ladden family..How did this family get so rich-?-you tell us. Only if you knew how and when and by whom all the Bushs got $bllions--you never say that anyone of them are good americans.

Bush was shot down while bombing Chichi Jima, a heavily defended, very small island, with no civilian population. It was strictly a military mission against a military target. For whatever Bush may have done since 1945, it is wrong to condemn the man for what he did as an officer in the United States Navy.

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O'Bill, the issue about ditching the plane is a non-issue. In a television piece debunking the Bermuda Triangle myth, the producers pointed out that if any of the missing aircraft in the famous 1947 indicident had been obliged to ditch (with green crews), they were screwed. They then showed film of an experienced Navy pilot in the cockpit of an Avenger, doing his damnedest to clear his gear away, and get out of the cockpit in the 45 seconds it took that aircraft to sink. It was a sobering little bit of celluloid--he not only had to get out within that span of time, he also had to swim away from the aircraft before it sank so it would not suck him down, as well.

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I saw something on this years ago, a piece in one of the newspapers I read at the time. I am guessing LA Times or the Washington Post, which I subscribed to from afar for a year or two. There was some fellow in a nearby plane, best I can remember it, who said GHWB bailed too fast. I never saw anything about it again, me at the time a daily newspaper devourer. So I wondered, from time to time, but not very much.

I am glad to read Setanta's coverage of the situation, and occam's recent post too. I am not GB I's fan re his presidency, but am glad to hear of all his previous flying experience, etc.. it puts the squibble I saw a long time ago in the context of something discounted with reason (NYT/WPost are, once in a while, newspapers that wouldn't mind something to mine if it bore fruit).

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Geo, the reason that the SAS troops received their awards, or whatever they were, in private is because they are still serving members. While in the SAS no one is allowed to know their identities or whereabouts. When they are deployed not even their wives are told where they are going.

Just wanted to clear that up. As for the rest of your posts... um... I can't even make sense of what you're trying to say.

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What is hard about what I am trying to say? I already said it.

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Can some-one tell me--why americans are so blind to crooks in government?
Neil, Jeb--George Snr- Twisted Evil

-Marvin ,George Jnr.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you have to focus on" - GW Bush

"You have to look at the entire Bush Family in this context -- as if the family ran a corporation called ?'Frauds-R-Us,'

George Jr.'s specialty was insurance and security fraud.

Jeb's specialty was oil and gas fraud.

Neil's specialty was real estate fraud.

Prescott's specialty was banking fraud.

And George Sr.'s specialty? All of the above." -- Lt. Cmdr. Al Martin, US Navy,(Ret)
"While opportunism isn't new in U.S. politics, never did so many in one family extract so many dollars from taxpayers as when George Bush senior was president a decade ago" -- David E. Scheim, author of Contract on America.
"What you've got with Bush [George senior] is absolutely the largest number of siblings and children involved in what looks like a never-ending hustle." -- Republican pundit Kevin Philips
"Texas businessmen [are] not crooks, "they just have an over-developed sense of the extenuating circumstance."" -- Molly Ivins

I guess some people call it ranting others unbiased truth.When will bone-headed americans wake-up and vote for someone with morals. Look what has happened to Dean----Media knifes out because he supports gays, end to funding israel, end to empire bldg.,end to starting wars and media concentration ownership.
YA!--IF ONLY AMERICANS KNEW- WE ARE THE MOST HATED AND DANGEROUS PEOPLE IN THE WORLD-THANKS TO THE BLOCK HEADS WHO SEE NO EVIL IN THE BUSH CLAN!

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PILOT Bush 41 BAILS OUT AND LEFT GUNNER TO DIE

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