John Kerry helping our Troop's

It seems like he is saying "I've never made any judgments" and "I've never raised that in an issue".

I don't see how this can be considered an insult.

You are reaching awfully far with this one.

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i don't see an insult in there either.

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Oh? He seems to be equating membership in the guard with fleeing to Canada to avoid the draft. Lots of guardsmen have been called to active duty, of course.

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I think the comment is specific to the Vietnam era.

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No. Kerry is being very fair.

These quotes clearly are answers to questions referring the the Vietnam era.

Many of us would point out that during this time certain members of the priveledged class used the Guard as a very effective way to avoid being sent to Vietnam. There is a very prominent public figure who was a member of the Guard and he , of course, was not called to active duty.

The people who fled to Canada were not members of this priveledged class, and this, did not have this option.

Kerry is very graciously saying that different people made different decisions during this very difficult time. He is not making any judgements.

Given the fact that Kerry didn't join the Guard, I think he is being very kind.

But I guess it's time to snipe at Kerry.

The fact that one has to reach so far into an area that is clearly a strength of Kerry's, makes me awfully confident in his candidacy.

I am looking forward to November!

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Well said, ep.

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Thanks Celli, but thinking about it more I change my mind.

John Kerry's Military service is clearly one of his most glaring weaknesses. If kjvtrue, roger and others want to hurt the chances Kerry will become president, they should bring up Kerry's actions during the Vietnam era as often and a loudly as possible.

Best of luck to you both. Don't forget to email this to all of your friends! Laughing

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The interesting thing about Kerry is he can have it both ways. He was and is a war hero. Don't like war heros? Okay, he was also the driving force and most intelligent speaker for the VietNam Vets against the War. Don't like peace creeps? Hey, he was and is a war hero. Cool

BTW the dig about the Guard is intended to stick it to a certain flyboy who failed to show up for duty for months on end, possibly because he was doing some fly, boy.

Go John.

Joe

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When i was in basic training and advanced individual training, the Guardsman used to taunt us with their eventual freedom.

In the first world war, MacArthur, who was the PR man to Pershing, organized "militia regiments" into the first true National Guard Divisions. He eventually helped to creat the 43rd Division, the "Rainbow" division, made up of such regiments from across the country. The 82nd Division, now an airborne division, had "AA" as its original shoulder patch--nothing to do with airborn, it meant the All-American division. These units and many like them were crucial to Peshing putting a million men in France in time for them to train, get experience in the trenchs, and participate in the Fall, 1918 offensive which ended the war. Our allies expected the Americans to be the "hinge" upon which the offensive would turn. MacArthur, as an Acting Division Commander, put his division in Sedan, his objective for a one month coampaign in three days.

In the Second World War, Texas contributed a division; West Texas, New Mexico and Arizona contributed a division; Maryland and Virginia contributed a division; New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts--every state sent their enrolled Guardsmen to fill out the eventual nine million service men and women who fought that war.

Vietnam, let's see . . . there was . . . there was . . . uh . . . oh yeah, they didn't go.

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Point of fact Setana,
There were several National Guard units that went to Vietnam. They WERE there!

Just a wanted to clear that up.

National Guardsmen from Delaware, Alabama, Texas, Iowa, Colorado, New Mexico, Kansas, Kentucky, Arkansas and several other states were deployed to the Republic of South Vietnam during the conflict.

My father was a full time Guardsmen for 27 years and I was brought up in the Guard 'family'. Several good friends of my father didn't come back from that War and they proudly served as Guardsmen.

So please do NOT forget that Guardsmen have served in EVERY major conflict that this country has been involved in since its founding.

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Right on that Fedral and I'll bet your dad showed up for duty for those years. I'd like to know what you think about someone who just no-shows for ten months and then packs in a bunch of duty days to get an early out.
Slacker.?

Joe

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They may have been deployed at the beginning of that war Fedral, i've no reason to call you a liar. I also know that they were notoriously absent when i went into the Army in 1970. I know that they routinely laughed at enlisted soldiers (as i was) and draftees by that time because we undoubtedly were going to go, and they weren't. I know that clowns like Quale and Bush used the Guard to evade combat service. I know that no one in 1970 got into the Guard without pulling strings. I know that comparing a handful of units here and there to literally hundreds of thousands who served in World War I and the literally millions who served in World War II is specious.

I'm not blasting the Guard and its members at all time and in all situations. If i were, i would not have been at pains to mention their contributions in other wars. The point, that the Guard became a place for those with connection to sit out the war, is well taken. If you've got a chip on your shoulder about this, that is neither my fault, nor my problem.

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Joe Nation wrote:

Right on that Fedral and I'll bet your dad showed up for duty for those years. I'd like to know what you think about someone who just no-shows for ten months and then packs in a bunch of duty days to get an early out.
Slacker.?
Joe

It does anger me Joe,
Even if you are out of your 'home; state, you can get temporarily attached to another states Guard to do your duty. (Several times during my fathers time in, Guardsmen whos civilian jobs took them to New Jersey temporarily came and did their drills with my fathers unit, It's not that hard to do, all you need to do is show up and 'pitch in')

President Bush's spotty attendance near the end of his Air National Guard career does irritate me, almost (but not quite) as much as Senator Kerry's work with the VVAW (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) where he:

*Kerry participated in the so-called Winter Soldier Investigation where his fellow protesters accused his fellow GIs of war crimes.

*Used a loop hole in Navy regulations to leave Vietnam (and his crew) before completing his tour of duty.

*Stated that the United States had a definite obligation to make extensive economic reparations to the people of Vietnam.

*As Chairman of the Select Committee, Kerry pushed hard to bury the POW/MIA issue, the last obstacle preventing normalization of relations with Hanoi.

*In December of 1992, not long after Kerry was quoted in the world press stating "President Bush should reward Vietnam within a month for its increased cooperation in accounting for American MIAs," Vietnam announced it had granted Boston, Massachusetts based Colliers International, a contract worth billions. Colliers International became exclusive real estate agent representing Vietnam.

(C. Stewart Forbes, Chief Executive Officer of Colliers International (Kerry's cousin), was awarded a contract worth billions designating Colliers International as the exclusive real estate agent representing Vietnam

*As Chairman visited Vietnam where he: (1) praised the Vietnamese effusively for granting access to their war archives and (2) told the press that there's no believable evidence to back up the stories of live POWs still being held. "Ironically, that very kind of live-POW evidence has been brought to Kerry's own committee on a regular basis over the past year, and he has repeatedly sought to impeach its value. Moreover, Kerry and his allies on the committee - such as Sens. John McCain, Nancy Kassebaum and Tom Daschle - have worked to block much of this evidence from being made public."

So yes, I have some anger towards the President over some of this things he did. But I save my true anger for those who deserve it.

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Setanta wrote:

If you've got a chip on your shoulder about this, that is neither my fault, nor my problem.

I wasn't 'copping an attitude Setana, I was just pointing out as I stated, a point of fact.

If I am standing there and you say apples are purple, I will point out that apples are red, yellow and green for the most part. This is not anything personal against you, it's just pointing out a fact.

I went into the Regular Army in 1987 and even THEN the National Guard and Reservists used to give we Regulars a hard time (I bet if you asked Regulars from every period of time you will find the 'weekend warriors' ALWAYS bust on the fulltimers.)

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It has long been established that the guard was used during the Vietnam war by influential people to protect their precious sons from being subject to the draft.

AND to protect entire football teams from being subject to the draft. Playing fields yes, battle fields no.

It does not follow, that because the priveleged used the guard as a refuge, that all guardsmen did not serve
honorably. 1. The guard was used by influential draft dodgers. 2. The guard served honorably. Both statements are true.

I believe that during the Vietnam War, not a single son of a congressman or senator was sent to Vietnam.

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I'm not saying apples are purple, Fedral--specious metaphor. I'm saying that most apples are red, and you're saying some are green, which doesn't change the fact that most are red.

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Setanta wrote:

Vietnam, let's see . . . there was . . . there was . . . uh . . . oh yeah, they didn't go.

That sounds to me like you denied that there were any Guardsmen in Vietnam.

I pointed out a factual error in your post.

So I will make a more accurate analogy.

You look at a tree and claim that there are no apples on it. At which point I point out several apples hanging from the branches. That is stating a point of fact.

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Fedral wrote:

President Bush's spotty attendance near the end of his Air National Guard career does irritate me, almost (but not quite) as much as Senator Kerry's work with the VVAW (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) where he:

*Kerry participated in the so-called Winter Soldier Investigation where his fellow protesters accused his fellow GIs of war crimes.

*Used a loop hole in Navy regulations to leave Vietnam (and his crew) before completing his tour of duty.

*Stated that the United States had a definite obligation to make extensive economic reparations to the people of Vietnam.

*As Chairman of the Select Committee, Kerry pushed hard to bury the POW/MIA issue, the last obstacle preventing normalization of relations with Hanoi.

*In December of 1992, not long after Kerry was quoted in the world press stating "President Bush should reward Vietnam within a month for its increased cooperation in accounting for American MIAs," Vietnam announced it had granted Boston, Massachusetts based Colliers International, a contract worth billions. Colliers International became exclusive real estate agent representing Vietnam.

(C. Stewart Forbes, Chief Executive Officer of Colliers International (Kerry's cousin), was awarded a contract worth billions designating Colliers International as the exclusive real estate agent representing Vietnam

*As Chairman visited Vietnam where he: (1) praised the Vietnamese effusively for granting access to their war archives and (2) told the press that there's no believable evidence to back up the stories of live POWs still being held. "Ironically, that very kind of live-POW evidence has been brought to Kerry's own committee on a regular basis over the past year, and he has repeatedly sought to impeach its value. Moreover, Kerry and his allies on the committee - such as Sens. John McCain, Nancy Kassebaum and Tom Daschle - have worked to block much of this evidence from being made public."

So yes, I have some anger towards the President over some of this things he did. But I save my true anger for those who deserve it.

So there we have the first front opened by the GOP on the current Democratic front-runner.

"Let's impugn his record after he left the service (Commie medal-tossing hippie war-protestor)."

"Let's blow on some of this corporate flint and see if we can get some smoke and fire going (bastard has ties to corporations -- and it's his cousin!)."

In short, 'let's accuse him of doing things that we Republicans do much worse and to a much greater degree.'

Now there's a real argument to vote for Bush. Rolling Eyes

There, ladies and gentlemen, is the first salvo in this year's battle. The pre-emptive attack waged by the Republicans in the politics of personal destruction. They will wage this campaign against John Kerry just as they did against Iraq.

An attractive thing to observe, isn't it?

BTW Fedral, those opinionated, insinuated, unsourced rounds of yours will continue to miss the mark, in light of Lt. Bush's examplary attendance record in his nation's service defending the flatlands and roadhouses of Alabama. Evil or Very Mad

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Can we all just agree that the majority of politicians have their self-interests ahead of the public's interests and move on? I am more concerned about what the next president will do in the next four years than I am about what they did 30 years ago.

Bush has the foriegn policy I like and the domestic policy that is good for no one. But at least he has something. What do his opponents offer?

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John Kerry helping our Troop's

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