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Reality from the view point of theists

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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 01:49 am
@aidan,
You avoided the corollary...
Quote:
If you argue that even one thing (the creator) does not need to come from something then why would anything need to come from something?

....but I wont labour the point.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 02:00 am
@fresco,
Yeah - I didn't avoid it - I overlooked it.

I'm not saying the creator does not need to come from something. I'm saying the CREATION needs to have come from something.

Yeah - you know in my mind, the CREATOR and the CREATION are the big I AM.
They just ARE - and amazing at that.
I can't explain it. That's why I know they are outside of and beyond my reality and actually outside of and beyond the understanding of any reality that any other person has every been able to grasp or try to explain to me.

The fact that NO ONE can explain it convinces me even moreso that there has to be something else.


fresco
 
  3  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 02:23 am
@aidan,
IMO it depends what you mean by "explanation".

My ballpark answer would be something like " a causal or regular system which gives confidence to our decisions about future actions". But since "causality" has no philosophically sound analysis (Hume or Locke can't remember which) we are inevitably stuck with the conclusion of "no ultimate answers". Hence for me, to give "an answer"(shrouded in mystery or otherwise) which theists try to do, is a psychological and sociological palliative which poses as a divine "authority" and "protector" with respect to human interactions with themselves, each other, and the world.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 02:34 am
I just had a preview of the script for the new BBC reality soap "Most People".

Scene: Frank Apisa's garden 10.am. Frank Gardening Enter Mrs Apisa.

Mrs A: Are you sure those bulbs will get the afternoon sun ?

Frank: Now lets see. Assuming the earth rotates at 1000 mph and its 10 a.m. now, I estimate the average exposure time in March for a six foot bed to be 2.834 hours.

Mrs A: Don't lie to me Frank, you've not been taking your medication have you ?
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 03:10 am
@fresco,
Interesting, except that I don't look at the creator as an authority or protector. One look at the world tells me that's not so.

I guess what I'm saying is that if no one can tell me what 'it' is - no one can tell me what 'it' isn't.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 03:23 am
@aidan,
...but those who argue that the perception of " reality" is a dynamic construction on the part of observers will tell you that "it-ness" is context sensitive and has no independent permanence. Indeed any "permanence" is suggested by the abstract permanence of words which indicate relative stability of relationships. Yesterday's "budding tree" is not today's "blossoming tree", as far as an insect is concerned, (or a photographer), even if the gardener curses the roots of "that tree" every time he mows the lawn.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 03:33 am
@fresco,
Quote:
.but those who argue that the perception of " reality" is a dynamic construction on the part of observers will tell you that "it-ness" is context sensitive and has no independent permanence. Indeed any "permanence" is suggested by the abstract permanence of words which indicate relative stability of relationships. Yesterday's "budding tree" is not today's "blossoming tree", as far as an insect is concerned, (or a photographer), even if the gardener curses the roots of "that tree" every time he mows the lawn.


I'm in total agreement with this - it seems perfectly logical to me.
Who/what I am tomorrow will be different -maybe only infitessimally, but all the same different -from who I am today depending on what I do, experience, eat, drink, etc...today and that's true of every being under the sun.
What I don't understand though is how that fact is inconsistent with anything else I've said.
The reality of any situation or being is ALWAYS changing. I agree with that.

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 03:40 am
@aidan,
It only matters if you require your deity to have "permanence", which seems to be a general aspect judging by the religious literature. If you are transcending that position I suggest your "comfort angle" would be difficult to justify.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 03:45 am
@fresco,
What 'comfort angle' are you talking about me justifying?
I don't know what you mean by 'comfort angle' much less how to justify it.

I guess I'm also uncomfortable with the word 'diety' in relation to my beliefs and the word 'permanence' as well.

I think all things are dynamic/changing. I think the fact that everything is always changing is the only thing we can all rely upon.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 05:43 am
@aidan,
Quote:
I'm not saying the creator does not need to come from something. I'm saying the CREATION needs to have come from something.


Then stop calling it a "creation"...which is something you do simply to require a creator...

...and the problem ceases to exist.

Right?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 05:46 am
By the way, Aiden…

…the something that is missing…that mysterious question you cannot answer and want to fill in using by supposing a GOD…that unknown thing that seems to elude us all…

…we agnostics refer to that as: The unknown.

We simply say that we do not know.

Just sayin’.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 05:57 am
@Frank Apisa,
God is only a figment of our imagination
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 05:58 am
@reasoning logic,
Spoken like a true fanatic.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 06:06 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Spoken like a true fanatic.


I think that for me and frank we can only imagine a God {or have it as a figment of our imagination} because we have never seen a God.
Have you had a personal relationship with a God that you would like to talk about?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 06:08 am
@reasoning logic,
I'm more interested in why you think you can talk for Frank.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 06:10 am
I would like to suggest that the impulse which leads people to speak of a "creation" is merely a simple and unconcious human conceit to the effect that things only exist because they are made. To a member of an old stone age hunter-gatherer culture, huts and spears and leather tunics exist because they are made by someone. So if one canvasses the greater question of whence the cosmos, they anthropomorphize, and imagine a creator.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 06:14 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I'm more interested in why you think you can talk for Frank.


Frank has already said that he can not prove that God exist, so by him stating that "I can only guess that he does not have a personal relationship with a God nor has he ever seen a God, otherwise he would not be making such a claim.

Are you ready to talk to us about your personal relationship with a God if you have one?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 06:33 am
@reasoning logic,
Why are you making assumptions about me?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 06:40 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
God is only a figment of our imagination


Well, that essentially is saying: There is no GOD. And I acknowledge that "There is no GOD" is one of the two p0ssibilities that I see.

The other, of course, is: There is a GOD.

I envy the fact that you and so many others have resolved that one way or the other.

I haven't!
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Mar, 2012 06:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I envy the fact that you and so many others have resolved that one way or the other.

I haven't!


Why? I'd rather there were more people that were unresolved. People who are unresolved don't tend to think they know what's best for everyone else. They don't think they have the right to talk for someone else.
0 Replies
 
 

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