Reality from the view point of theists

@Frank Apisa,

You should confuse absurd with abstract, Frank.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

If you want me to admit your right due to technicalities...then you are...I will say this to make you feel better...

these were not technicalities but the way it is , like it or not

observation is the after affect of what it takes for life to exist in the first place

can't change this

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But the bottom line is without a God, or life smart enough to understand what concepts such as Conscientiousness are, and = reality...It is pointless...but your right there is...
but the line would be so razor thin, it wouldn't be seen under a 10,000 power microscope...

you missed my point

the Universe doesn't need a god or any conscience to exist , it just does and long , long before , any conscience or concept of god mattered

there is NO razor thin line , because there no need to be

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I will break it down...

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1. If God is not real, and there is life, not smart enough to realize these concepts, then it is as good as non-existence...

the Universe needs neither to exist

if intelligent life comes about fine , but inorder for that to happen the Universe exists first

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2. If God is real, and there is no life smart enough to understand these concepts...Still stupid...You would have the ability to have consciousnesses, = reality, but he would be so dumb that he would be a God of nothing...Not what we call a God at all...No one to share himself, and our self with, he would not be smart enough to know to create something like us, and would be in Heaven, or wherever, forever for nothing, forever...by himself...

perhaps this god is not alone , multiple gods

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3. If no God exists, and nothing as smart as humans exist, it is so ******* stupid that it is basically as good as saying no existence at all...Would there still be time? Yes...Would there still be space? yes...Would there still be hurricanes, volcano's, earthquakes? yes to all...Would the sun still come up? yes etc...but it would be so pointless, that it wouldn't matter, so much so...that there would be no difference if the universe ever came out of the size of a pin, or if the world was going on like it is today or not...This argument is so razor thin...it is not even worth arguing about....

aliens then , extraterrestrials

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So I stand by what I had said, without the concepts of consciousness = reality, it (the universe) is as good as non existent...

the Universe is about the possiblities of...... thats all , now and in the future

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Wow, the level of this discussion has really taken a plunge in the last couple of days:

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

But if there were no one with a conscience to observe any of this existence then it is as good as non existence...

How you do not realize this, is puzzling to me....

Spade, you seem overly invested in the idea that being is only fulfilled within a teleological scheme, which seems counter-intuitive. What if being comprises all that is, which seems to be the common-sense conclusion. Then wouldn't all "values" seem to be contingent on this being?

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

If you want me to admit your right due to technicalities...then you are...I will say this to make you feel better...

But the bottom line is without a God, or life smart enough to understand what concepts such as Conscientiousness are, and = reality...It is pointless...but your right there is...
but the line would be so razor thin, it wouldn't be seen under a 10,000 power microscope...

I will break it down...

1. If God is not real, and there is life, not smart enough to realize these concepts, then it is as good as non-existence...

2. If God is real, and there is no life smart enough to understand these concepts...Still stupid...You would have the ability to have consciousnesses, = reality, but he would be so dumb that he would be a God of nothing...Not what we call a God at all...No one to share himself, and our self with, he would not be smart enough to know to create something like us, and would be in Heaven, or wherever, forever for nothing, forever...by himself...

3. If no God exists, and nothing as smart as humans exist, it is so ******* stupid that it is basically as good as saying no existence at all...Would there still be time? Yes...Would there still be space? yes...Would there still be hurricanes, volcano's, earthquakes? yes to all...Would the sun still come up? yes etc...but it would be so pointless, that it wouldn't matter, so much so...that there would be no difference if the universe ever came out of the size of a pin, or if the world was going on like it is today or not...This argument is so razor thin...it is not even worth arguing about....

So I stand by what I had said, without the concepts of consciousness = reality, it (the universe) is as good as non existent...

...what a mouthful...i'll try not to be a dick by pointing out your grammatical errors in the preceding statement. And i'll also not point out that there is a difference between the meaning of words "consciousness" and "conscience-ness", since i don't feel like you meant to advocate solipsism. (Which is to say, that i'll be happy to be just such a dick, and a passive-aggressive one, as well.)

The most immoral, unconscientious of lives have, unfortunately, the same reality as the possible saintliness of certain individuals. The proof is in the consequences, i'm afraid. "As good as" only has meaning within a teleological universe ("good" being a teleological concept), if anyone is "technically right" when arguing against it then they are completely correct.

i'm sorry if you feel that existence is a predicate of justice...you are bound to be constantly disappointed.

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@Razzleg,

Agreeing in almost every way...just a small remark upon the concept of "goodness" in its meaningful relation with Reality, as goodness to my view is what works consistently with the "System" at large and not in any particular "local" cause effect relation...that´s precisely where good becomes relative.
...of course being what we are all the good we are interested in is that good that relates with our species, culture, and particular interests...the "other" kind of good is to far off for most of us to care to take a look at it...nevertheless it felt right to bring the remark on...feel free to ad up on it.

Best Regards >Filipe de Albuquerque

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Again in very harsh terms "good" is what works and because it works is Good !
The Law, the Real behind the real, is always good, not because somebody said so, but because it reports whatever is the case to be True Real and Functional (not the other way around)...Law is "thingness" in its most abstract form...that which is real and possible against non being or that which is not possible, not mentionable...and such that in good rigour can´t even be "thatified"...all the non possible we can come up with are made of little possibles which don´t match each other...go figure how far are we of dealing with non being which obviously is very different from emptiness, or the form between the forms of objects...indeed many confusion arises in these pseudo debates...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Agreeing in almost every way...just a small remark upon the concept of "goodness" in its meaningful relation with Reality, as goodness to my view is what works consistently with the "System" at large and not in any particular "local" cause effect relation...that´s precisely where good becomes relative.
...of course being what we are all the good we are interested in is that good that relates with our species, culture, and particular interests...the "other" kind of good is to far off for most of us to care to take a look at it...nevertheless it felt right to bring the remark on...feel free to ad up on it.

Best Regards >Filipe de Albuquerque

Well, i appreciate the positive feedback, Fil, but i still disagree with your reservations, as i suspect you would expect. While i won't accuse you of harboring the same prejudices as Spade, we are still ontologically opposed:

"Function" is not a positive attribute of existence to be favored over "disfunction". "What works" is ultimately an epistemic concept, while what doesn't work (and yet exists), is reduced (or elevated) to an ontological level. What if it were that useless excess, those unnavigable streams, that formed the boundary that kept the teleological universe flowing?

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@Razzleg,

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The most immoral, unconscientious of lives have, unfortunately, the same reality as the possible saintliness of certain individuals. The proof is in the consequences, i'm afraid. "As good as" only has meaning within a teleological universe ("good" being a teleological concept), if anyone is "technically right" when arguing against it then they are completely correct.

I wasn't saying I think he is technically correct, because I feel so...It was to make him feel better...

Without a conscience, there is no such thing as reality on any level...

Would the world still go on, etc? yes, but it would not make a difference at all...and if no one was smart enough to have a conscience to observe, and discuss these concepts than "it" really is existence, but there certainly is no such thing as reality....

Reality, would consist of doing things...But not even understanding why, or in any way to change the effects of it...therefore it would be the same as non-existence...

Reality comes, when something is created with the intelligence of understanding a conscience, and or questioning it, and or observing, and altering it, or accepting it in a way so that there are things that are understood and agreed upon...

Without it, it would not really matter much at all...So much so, we would not even realize there is a such thing as existence even though we would exist....and truly there would be no such thing as "reality"...

If you call that reality, than I guess I could say you and north are right...to me, that is not a reality...That is just being....

Reality comes when there is some kind of accepting, and understanding of what reality itself is...When that is achieved, than there is reality...without it, there is no such thing as reality...

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@Razzleg,

...not in my conceptual frame...what works is what is the case not what we assume to be the case...not about knowledge but rather about fact. (What really works)
Did you read what I said regarding the nature of "goodness" and the nature of Law (natural Law) ? That settles what I intended to convey...

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What if it were that useless excess, those unnavigable streams, that formed the boundary that kept the teleological universe flowing?

...no idea what you are talking about here...

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@north,

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these were not technicalities but the way it is , like it or not

observation is the after affect of what it takes for life to exist in the first place

can't change this

Are you 100% sure your right>>?

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you missed my point

Nope!

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the Universe doesn't need a god or any conscience to exist , it just does and long , long before , any conscience or concept of god mattered

Are you 100% sure?

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there is NO razor thin line , because there no need to be

Yes there is...I do not believe that existence without a conscience to understand reality = true reality is such a razor thin line, it is not reality at all...and if you say it is, it is so small, stupid, and pointless...It is razor thin...

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the Universe needs neither to exist

Are you 100% sure?

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if intelligent life comes about fine , but inorder for that to happen the Universe exists first

Says who? you? What if a God is real? than all of what you said is bullshit...A God(s) and consciousness came first...

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perhaps this god is not alone , multiple gods

I disagree with this...If a God is real, there must be one....

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aliens then , extraterrestrials

Still a form of life that would REQUIRE intelligence of understanding what in fact existence is that makes up reality...You can use any living thing you want to...If they do not understand what reality is...Than there is no such thing as reality, they just exist...the point at which reality is reality, is the point of understanding what reality is...Which is your conscience....

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the Universe is about the possiblities of...... thats all , now and in the future

And if nothing was smart enough to know or understand these possibilities...How is there a such thing as reality?

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@north,

And if you or razz argue that if we existed, and were not smart enough to know what existence is, and not know what reality is, that would be our reality...

That line is so fucken small it is pointless to even argue...

First, that is very easy to say that now in hindsight, because we are smart enough to know what reality is...(thank you conscience)

Second, If we do not even know what existence was, or is, how are we smart enough to know what reality was/or is??

Third, If we exist, but do not know what reality is...How are we really existing? other than just being??

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This was such an interesting thread until it "plunged" into...

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@JLNobody,

Thanks! I appreciate the vote of confidence as well! Wink

I was actually invited by the original poster, for my opinion...Or I would not have came here...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

And if you or razz argue that if we existed, and were not smart enough to know what existence is, and not know what reality is, that would be our reality...

where did that come from ?

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That line is so fucken small it is pointless to even argue...

to you

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First, that is very easy to say that now in hindsight, because we are smart enough to know what reality is...(thank you conscience)

well the Ancient past is where the bible is

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Second, If we do not even know what existence was, or is, how are we smart enough to know what reality was/or is??

hmm... the difficulty by you to deal with the Ancient past , tough , suck it up

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Third, If we exist, but do not know what reality is...How are we really existing? other than just being??

now the confusion sets in

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All humans can agree on what reality is to a certain extent. How much do we really know? And how much is derived and deduced from that knowledge? I think there is a basis of our impressions of reality that we can all identify with simply because we all share the same conditions (human mortality). But beyond any experiment that can be empirically verified, we have no means of comparing information, in fact, we have no means of sharing information without it becoming altered in the sharing.
We simply do not at present possess the language or communication method necessary to reach a consensus on what "reality", in the broadest meaning of the term, means.

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@Cyracuz,

More preaching:
I don't think there is any survival value (i.e., evolutionary advantage) is an intellectual interpretation of the ontologifcal status of "reality"--as enjoyable as the effort may be. We can and have persisted without such interpretations. On the other hand, the experential quality of immediate experience is greatly enhanced by a sense of one's relationship--one's unity or one-ness--with his on-going life experience. The achievement of this "sense" is more likely by means of "Eastern" methodologies (i.e., forms of meditation) than by "Western" philosophical traditions and the Scientific Method (despite their wonderful achievements in other areas of human inquiry). Meditation is not primarily about intellectual inquiry; it does not, in my many years of practice, generate ideas. Nevertheless, it can provide a sense of balance and openness to experience which is to me is the highest goal of life.

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@Cyracuz,

I agree with you, and some of what JL said, even though he seems to think his position is entirely different...

The consensus of both of your posts seems to imply what I had said earlier...

The point at which reality is reality, is the point it is understood what existence is, and what reality "means"....

CY, I agree that it is a cause of accepting, changing, and altering it...(morality) but I would also add, that is a direct correlation to what your conscience is....

JL, I do not necessarily disagree with your method, but I would say we believe it is brought about from similar ways, you call it meditation...I call it a direct relationship to your conscience, and God...Which would be in my terms praying....

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@JLNobody,

Actually I think there is great evolutionary advantage in an intellectual interpretation of the ontologifcal status of "reality". Wouldn't we still be ruled by the church and its beliefs if the inquiring minds of the renaissance period hadn't challenged the ontological status of reality? I think our intellectual interpretation greatly influences the ontological status of reality.

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@Cyracuz,

...in the basis of what you just said am I to doubt the existence of the very sentence you just pronounced ? amounts to state that what you stated was not stated...a beauty ! Laughing

...it does n´t much matter whether what it conveys makes any sense, but according to you the very sentence and though or idea you just conveyed does not exist, it was no done, claims nothing !

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@Fil Albuquerque,

...a small quote from another threads reply that I just finished is entirely clarifying and central to this thread :

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...even if one argues that the problem posed by Descartes was not correctly formulated once "I" exist says nothing onto the nature of the I...the essential in it stays true, that is, X exists if I am questioning anything...the very questioning to be a question, or to exist fits the definition that an X exists, in the very least on the form of the very question we are posing !...

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@Cyracuz,

No doubt our general intellectual orientations influence what we specifically consider to be the ontological status of reality, but I think that they have little to do with the physical survival of our species: we have survived either (in part) because or despite many stupid worldviews and ideologies. Some institutions have (regarding the survival value of behavioral and ideological institutions or the persistence of their residents), "eufunctional" value and some are "dysfunctional" (leading to revolutionary changes in social organization). Most, I suspect are functionally neutral: they neither support nor undermine the survival of populations or their forms of social life.

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Reality from the view point of theists

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