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It is Official...America Has Lost the War in Afghanistan

 
 
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 03:20 am
Quote:
They have seen off the Russians and the British before and now it is America's time that is drawing to a close, with the British and other Nato allies eager to depart with them.

The revelation that US troops had dumped copies of the Koran into an incineration pit may hasten that end.

At the very least, it has provided an open goal for the Taliban and anyone else who wants to provoke anti-American and anti-foreigner sentiments.

There are few more emotive issues in Afghanistan than allegations of the Islamic holy book being desecrated.

It has triggered violent disturbances as far back as 2005 - even when the claims of the Koran being mishandled have not been substantiated.

'Same mistakes'
Last year, at least 10 people were killed in Mazar-e Sharif after news reached Afghanistan of an extremist American pastor burning a Koran in faraway Florida.


US troop have been accused of deliberately burning Korans
There is quiet fury within the Afghan government towards the Americans at what one official calls their "brainless" behaviour.

They are making the "same mistakes as the Russians" says Afghan analyst Omar Safi - failing to respect the Muslim religion.

"No-one should die because of a few books being set on fire," one Afghan official told me on condition of anonymity.

But "that is no excuse" he said, for American actions.

Even people still well-disposed towards them cannot believe how they could have allowed this to happen, after more than a decade here and many previous mistakes.

Never before have the Americans apologised so quickly and so profusely as this time - but it sounds hollow to many Afghans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17140569

We bungled our way in Iraq to another Vietnam, But in Afghanistan we bungled our way to a flat out defeat. Only the date of our admission of defeat is now in questioned. I am betting that Obama now wishes that he had left McChrystal in charge, as he was our only hope.
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Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 08:45 am
@hawkeye10,
They lost it before they even joined it... Stupidity flows out of ideology...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 12:59 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:

They lost it before they even joined it... Stupidity flows out of ideology...


I dont think so, we had the military might to roll over the opposition, the problem was our unwillingness to deal with reality.In both Iraq and Afghanistan we have not had the leadership required to get to victory. The fact that Washington no longer works is the main problem, and the rot that has taken hold of the military officer corps being a major contributor to that. McChrytal is one of the very few good war fighters that we have, and Shenseki is one of the very few senior leaders who has the stones to speak truth to power. We needed 100 more senior officers as good as them, and we dont have anywhere near that. Petraeus is great, but he needed help to save the situation, as we had already made a hash of the situation by the time he was called.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 01:41 pm
@hawkeye10,
Things have never really worked out all that well for countries with a predilection to commit war crimes, Hawkeye.

America hasn't lost the war in Afghanistan as there was no war. America is just pulling out from another in a long long line of illegal invasions of sovereign nations.

Quote:
The International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, which followed World War II, called the waging of aggressive war "essentially an evil thing...to initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 01:46 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
America is just pulling out from another in a long long line of illegal invasions of sovereign nations.


Please, very few global leaders give a **** about national sovereignty at the end of the day. China gets all kinds of hell for routinely standing up for national sovereignty at the UN, the latest example being a vote on squashing Syria.

You are out of date.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 01:49 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
You are out of date.


That's a new one, Hawk. Being opposed to war crimes/terrorism is out of date. Is that the same as out of fashion?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 02:03 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
You are out of date.


That's a new one, Hawk. Being opposed to war crimes/terrorism is out of date. Is that the same as out of fashion?


National sovereignty no longer exists, so you using it to push your claim is a weak argument. "Human rights" is where it is at today, using what ever definition of the term that is convenient to the argument.

How old are you that you are making such archaic arguments?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 02:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
National sovereignty no longer exists


Really? It's a favorite argument advanced by the US.

Quote:
using what ever definition of the term that is convenient to the argument.


That's another favorite of the US. Right after the Reagan band of murderers, torturers, rapists had had their way with the poor little country of Nicaragua, a Reagan official actually advanced that specious argument. It is of course no different than what would come out of the mouths of the most heinous of common gangsters.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 02:26 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Really? It's a favorite argument advanced by the US.


This is the same america that I argue has lost Afghanistan and done another Vietnam in Iraq because we chose to indulge in our fantasies rather than deal with reality. Claims made by the American government are routinely not worthy of being taken seriously by those of us who choose to live in a reality based environment.

Quote:
It is of course no different than what would come out of the mouths of the most heinous of common gangsters.


You always run into that landmine, your inability to fairly compare Americans with the other peoples of this planet. We are pretty much average when it comes to our crimes against others, we are not thugs. It would be useful to know what happened to you that so twisted your perception, but you are not honest enough to tell us. Your morals are only actionable when it suits you.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 03:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
You always run into that landmine, your inability to fairly compare Americans with the other peoples of this planet. We are pretty much average when it comes to our crimes against others, we are not thugs.


Hawk, that is a monstrous lie, begat of course from the propaganda that you have been bombarded with.

Here's an article that illustrates just what a huge lie that is. This is only a short excerpt. If you are as honest as you like to portray, take your time and read it all.

Quote:


The CIA and the Gulf War
by John Stockwell
A speech delivered on 1991-02-20 at the
Louden Nelson Community Center, Santa Cruz, California

But first, how many people have read ..... The last time I was here, I asked you to ..... How many people actually read Howard Zinn's bookA People's History of the United States? ..... That's better! Everybody else: Tomorrow, call in sick. Don't go to class. Read this book! Quite simply, you will never understand the U.S. System as completely until you read it. And once you read it, you will be able to understand what's happening, broadly, for the rest of your life. It's extremely well-written, extremely well- documented, tremendously moving, with quotes on every page: every phase of our history, as viewed, not from the interests of the country and big business — as our high school textbooks are and as our college textbooks are — but from the viewpoint of the people who died in the wars, who fought in the wars, who paid for the wars, and who profited from the wars, of course.

This war we're going to talk about tonight is called the "Persian Gulf War" — the "SuperBowl War" — the "Made-for-Television War" — the "Pentagon-Edited War" — the "Women-Have-a-Right-to-Kill,-Die- and-Be-Captured-Too War" — "the Censored War" — the "Saddam Hussein-is-So-Evil-We-Have-to-Do-It War" — and the "I've-Got-to-Support-Our-Troops-Right-or-Wrong War".

Now this thing was thoroughly prepared for six months, overtly, by the United States Government, the Pentagon, and the Media — CNN [Cable News Network] getting into it many weeks ago with heavy coverage. We covered it so thoroughly that on January 14th ..... and I've been writing screenplays and things, trying to make a living, with CNN on ..... On the 14th, waiting for the kick-off, they had an Emory University professor on who gave us advice on how to play Wall Street to profit from the war before it happened. His advice is very simple — in case you're sitting on a bundle of money and you don't want to give it to the Christic Institute or to me — He said: "Jump now." That was on the 14th. He said: "Don't wait a few days because then, other people will be jumping. Go in right now!" And then, he said: "The U.S. dollar will go up temporarily, so buy Japanese yen. Wait `til it goes up, then buy Japanese yen because by the end of the year the dollar will be back down and the yen will have doubled in value again and you can make a bundle on that.

Every obscene coverage that we could possibly do!

And then the whole world waited, on the 15th and 16th, for the kickoff of this great modern war. Now, some people waited, or had been waiting, longer than others. I found myself in the position (albeit a country boy from Texas who grew up in Africa; but you know) reading books and having seen a little bit of this stuff from the National Security Council level, I had been able to predict, nine months ahead of time, that the U.S. would invade Panama. And this was not a shot in the dark. This was an analysis of the United States and George Bush — for whom I worked, at the end of the "Angola Secret War", where I was the task force commander for a subcommittee of the National Security Council, and he was the CIA Director responsible for fending off the Congress.

Let me hasten to say that this is a very nice man to be around. He's considerate. He's personable. He has high positive energy. If your child gets sick, even if you're way down on his staff, you'll get a postcard in the mail very promptly, saying:

"Very sorry about Johnny ..."

shaking hands with people and remembering their names; a considerate, decent person at the human level. And then, of course, he has rationales for what he does, and we're going to be talking about these things. But I gave speeches at American University in November, and then at the House of Commons in England in early December. Again, C-SPAN managed to get a film of this, a video, and they played it on national television eight times when the invasion occurred, because in those speeches, I had predicted the invasion and analyzed why. Then, about a year ago, I predicted this war. And again, this was not a shot in the dark. This was a cold, sober, careful analysis of the United States: where it was, and why it would need a war; and of George Bush: and why he would take the nation into war.
Now that's what I want to go through tonight, if I possibly can, is to give you all the essential elements and understanding of how I was able to make those predictions, so that you will be able to predict the next war. Because there certainly will be another one after this one, unless we can intervene and break the cycles, and make a profound change in the United States System. My point is that we know how these things work. It isn't magic. It isn't classified. It isn't secret. Since the Vietnam War, the Establishment — the Military Establishment, as I call it — Eisenhower called it the Military-Industrial Complex — the Military Establishment, which is the very powerful central engine in our society, in our permanent War Complex, has been working to erase the stigma of the Vietnam War and has been telling us that it was doing that.

President Reagan came into office saying that he would teach the nation how to fight war again, to make us stand tall — and then, of course, pouring huge resources into the Military, and glamorizing the Military, bombing Libya, invading Grenada, and [waging] low-intensity warfare against Nicaragua, but rehearsing for the invasion of Nicaragua. Interestingly enough, they were prohibited by the Military, by the Pentagon, by the Defense Department, from invading Nicaragua, actually, because the [American] People were solidly against it. And so, the Secretary of Defense, in public speeches, said: "No, not with my Defense Department, unless you can persuade the People to support it." They couldn't make their sale, and we were spared the horror of our doing this thing on Nicaragua.


http://www.serendipity.li/cia/stock2.html




0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Feb, 2012 09:23 pm
Quote:
WASHINGTON — American officials sought to reassure both Afghanistan’s government and a domestic audience on Sunday that the United States remained committed to the war after the weekend killing of two American military officers inside the Afghan Interior Ministry and days of deadly anti-American protests.

But behind the public pronouncements, American officials described a growing concern, even at the highest levels of the Obama administration and Pentagon, about the challenges of pulling off a troop withdrawal in Afghanistan that hinges on the close mentoring and training of army and police forces.

Despite an American-led training effort that has spanned years and cost tens of billions of dollars, the Afghan security forces are still widely seen as riddled with dangerously unreliable soldiers and police officers. The distrust has only deepened as a pattern of attacks by Afghan security forces on American and NATO service members, beginning years ago, has drastically worsened over the past few days. A grenade attack on Sunday, apparently by a protester, wounded at least six American soldiers.

Nearly a week of violent unrest after American personnel threw Korans into a pit of burning trash has brought into sharp relief the growing American and Afghan frustration — and, at times, open hostility — and the risks of a strategy that calls for American soldiers and civilians to work closely with Afghans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/world/asia/burning-of-korans-complicates-us-pullout-plan-in-afghanistan.html?_r=1&hp

What the pull out of Nato Officers from Afghan ministries means is that it is now going to be impossible for Obama to declare victory as we leave as was the plan. We can expect little sympathy and no help form the Afghan Tribal leaders, as they almost universally see America's problems as being the result of American incompetence, an after all we have announced that we are leaving no matter what anyways so only the idiot sticks his neck out for America. It will be China who picks up the pieces, and the wealth of mineral rights.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2012 06:10 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Really? It's a favorite argument advanced by the US.


This is the same america that I argue has lost Afghanistan and done another Vietnam in Iraq because we chose to indulge in our fantasies rather than deal with reality. Claims made by the American government are routinely not worthy of being taken seriously by those of us who choose to live in a reality based environment.

Quote:
It is of course no different than what would come out of the mouths of the most heinous of common gangsters.


You always run into that landmine, your inability to fairly compare Americans with the other peoples of this planet. We are pretty much average when it comes to our crimes against others, we are not thugs. It would be useful to know what happened to you that so twisted your perception, but you are not honest enough to tell us. Your morals are only actionable when it suits you.
It would have been possible to punish the people of Aghanistan for the actions of Bin Ladin, and the Taliban if that had been our will... We could have done that ten times for the price of staying there once... It is in all that is taken for granted that America fails in these endless wars... The desire of Americans for endless, pointless conflict at the price of their own standard of living is limited... Their attention span as a witness of human suffering is limited, and naturally so since we must deny our own suffering and fear of death to deal death and suffering abroad... The very waste of energy in delivering a blow so far from home with so much force is bound to weaken the country which delivers it... Pain, vengeance, hardship, warfare, death and destitution are realities we know little of, are the constant companions of those people...What can we do to them that they have not already suffered as a fact of life??? Our defeat was ordained... You cannot beat geography... You cannot beat a religion with violence... You cannot beat ignorance with technology when ignorance is endemic, and technology comes at so dear a price... Look at who wants this war... The republicans who will not borrow to support social programs borrowed to have these wars... The loudest patriots have always been the profiteers... They should be silenced... Only those who will lose by war should have a vote on the matter... Those who must offer their lives or the lives of their children, who must sacrifice their income and standard of living to have war should have a vote on the matter... This nonsense of punishing a whole people and ourselves in the bargain to get at a few leaders is absolute nonsense... And it is not unusual given the fact that we are led by those who can use the excuse of war to keep themselves in government money at the country's expense...

We are not average and do not conceive of ourselves as average... The demagogues who rule this people blow sand up their ass about losing face, or spreading democracy we don't have, or the rule of law... It is all an excuse to fleece this people under cover of attacking other people... The fact is that such adventures as this weaken this country, and leave us vulnerable to our true enemies -most of whom are living here as rich people who have no love for us or patriotism at all... Offense is not defense, and this country was constituted for our common defense and other good reasons none of which can be found in Afghanistan... Showing ourselves as devils to Muslims will do nothing to make us safer in a world where Muslims far outnumber us... We need mutual respect, and going broke on endless war will not engender respect...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Feb, 2012 06:33 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
America is just pulling out from another in a long long line of illegal invasions of sovereign nations.


Please, very few global leaders give a **** about national sovereignty at the end of the day. China gets all kinds of hell for routinely standing up for national sovereignty at the UN, the latest example being a vote on squashing Syria.

You are out of date.
Capitalism is international, and it always works to break down national lines... But look at the Chinese for example... Ultimately, the largest ethnic (national) group in China is taking over every area... Who can argue about Tibet??? They have always been in the Chinese sphere of influence, but now that Chinese influence has come to mean actual colonization, and a driving out of ethnic Tibetans, what can we do to stop them??? We are strung out and occupied with Afghanistan, on guard in Iraq, trying to reserve force in support of Israel, and helpless to do anthing meaningful in Syria though it is doubtful we want to do more given the fact that they have no oil...

We are not playing the right game, or are not playing the game right... Our power should be reserved to protect and maintain influence, and our influence should be leveraged to gain more influence... To think we can piss away power on some dead end like Afghanistan, and still have power at the end is nonsense... The battery of military power exhausts and demoralizes a people to build up and recharge it... The problem is ideological... People should use ideas to think, and not allow their ideas to think for them...
0 Replies
 
 

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