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Would "Christians" vote for Mitt Romney if they knew Mormons rebaptise other religions' deads?

 
 
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2012 01:16 pm
Baptism for the dead
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Baptism for the dead, vicarious baptism or proxy baptism today commonly refers to the religious practice of baptizing a living person on the behalf of one who is dead; with the living person receiving the ordinance of baptism, for the dead person.

Baptism for the dead is today best known as a doctrine of the Latter Day Saint movement, where it has been practiced since 1840. It is currently practiced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), where it is performed only in dedicated temples, as well as in several (but not all) other current factions of the Latter Day Saint movement. Those who practice this rite view baptism as an indispensable requirement to enter the Kingdom of God, and thus practice Baptism for the Dead to give those who have died without ever having had the opportunity to receive baptism the opportunity to receive it by proxy if they wish.

The modern term itself is derived from a phrase "baptised for the dead" occuring twice in the New Testament (1 Corinthians 15:29), though the meaning of that phrase is an open question among scholars. Early heresiologists Tertullian (Against Marcion 10) and Chrysostom (Homilies 40) attributed the practice to the Marcionites, whom they identified as a heretical "gnostic" group.[1]

Consequently the practice was forbidden by the Catholic Church, and is not practiced in modern mainstream Christianity, whether Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant.

More information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2012 01:39 pm
As they rebaptise dead people and also these peoples relatives any of us might end up in the Mormon heaven. What a terrible idea.
What I do not like about them is that they talk about Jesus as if they really believe in him, but the religion does not believe in Jesus as Christ, so in a very theologian sence they are not even Christians.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2012 01:42 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
This seems like a nice doctrine to me.

Most Christians believe that when you die without having accepted Jesus, you go to hell to burn for eternity with no chance for appeal. At least there is a chance here.

I don't see how it hurts anyone and compared to other Christian denominations it seems rather compassionate.



Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 Feb, 2012 02:40 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Sure... Chrisitians would climb right up the peepee hole of stupidity if they could get a free look at the future out of its ass... If a little water was all it took to be saved everyone at the Y could cry hallaluja...What unites all Christians and Mormons too, is nothing about Christ, is bigger than Christ and a whole lot harder to stop... It is mammon, and not Mormon they have in common... They are all too into the here and now to care much about takin care of the then and there..
0 Replies
 
JL Fuller
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 09:10 am
Readers should be aware that the ordinance is strictly an offering. It makes no demands on the departed. A living person performs this ordinance at the request of a relative of the dead person or, if they are LDS, the relative performs the ordinances (there are four) themselves.

A departed soul makes the decision about whether to accept or reject what the living have done on his or her behalf. Nothing is forced. It should also be made clear that the dead are not carried on the records of the church as a member. In fact the only record kept is that the ordinance has been performed and such things as the date and location where the ordinances were performed.

This offering can be better understood if it is looked at as being similar to Catholics praying someone out of purgatory although the theology is much different.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 09:30 am
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
Catholics also “believe” Baptism is a necessity for entrance into Heaven…supposedly because their god will not allow a soul stained with Original Sin to enter into its presence. Baptism removes original sin from a newborn…or removes all sins from a repentant adult who has not previously been Baptized.

St. Augustine taught that individuals who died without receiving the sacrament of Baptism, went to Hell…albeit to a special section of Hell without all the ordinary torments of that Place. St. Thomas Aquinas taught that individuals who died without receiving the sacrament of Baptism went to a special place called Limbo…where there was perfect happiness EXCEPT the Beatific Vision…or personal contact with the god. But since Catholics also teach that the most dire punishment of Hell is the loss of the Beatific Vision, there doesn’t seem to be much difference being made here.

Currently the Church teaches that there are other forms of Baptism…such as the Baptism of Blood, Baptism of Desire, etc…which allow a soul not formally Baptized to be cleansed of sin.

Conditional Baptism is also practiced in Catholicism, where Baptism is performed on what appears to be a dead person, with the condition that the soul has not already departed.


In any case, no harm...no foul.
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 10:02 am
@Frank Apisa,
MORE INFORMATION - BBB

Vatican Will Not Accept Mormon Baptisms
Los Angeles Times, July 20, 2001

The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church's effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.

The Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are "not the baptism that Christ instituted."

The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church's usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism's.

It was the second time in as many years that a major Christian church had ruled that Mormon converts must be rebaptized. Last year, the United Methodist Church, the nation's second-largest Protestant denomination, took a similar stand.

Despite its distinctive doctrines, the 11-million-member Latter-day Saints church has worked hard to cast itself as part of the American mainstream in this country and as a legitimate Christian church in developing countries where its missionaries are winning converts.

Its emphasis on family values, citizenship and living a virtuous life has been a major factor in its growing acceptance.

Over its history, the church has given up some of its more controversial practices. To gain statehood, Mormon-dominated Utah outlawed polygamy in 1890. In the aftermath of the U.S. civil rights struggle, the church dropped its bar to blacks becoming Mormon priests in 1978. But it has never been accepted as an authentically Christian church by other churches, even as they admire the dedication and good works of its members.
(...)

Religious scholar Jan Shipps said the Catholic decision will likely be a letdown for Latter-day Saints.
(...)

"In the mainstreaming of themselves, they've talked about themselves as Christians. They have emphasized Christianity in their internal materials. They've got their own people calling themselves Christians as opposed to calling themselves Mormons," she said.

Dan Wotherspoon, editor of Sunstone Magazine, an independent journal of Mormon life and issues published in Salt Lake City, said, "Clearly, the LDS church still has their work cut out for them in this effort to be known as a Christian church."

In Salt Lake City, Latter-day Saints spokesmen sought to minimize the importance of the Catholic decision, or its possible effect on efforts by the church to present itself as a Christian church.

"We are neither concerned nor offended that the Catholic Church has determined not to recognize Latter-day Saint baptisms," church spokesman Michael Otterson said Thursday. He noted that converts to the Mormon faith must be rebaptized.
(...)

Tod Tamberg, a spokesman for the Los Angeles Roman Catholic Archdiocese, said from now on all Mormon converts will be baptized as if for the first time. He stressed that the decision "in no way is to be considered any kind of judgment about the relationship between Jesus Christ and members of the Church of Latter-day Saints."

He added that the new baptism rule would have no effect on ecumenical cooperation with Latter-day Saints.

"We continue to share beliefs in the strength and importance of the family and a number of life issues. We'll continue to work in those areas as we do with other faiths that don't share our particular beliefs," Tamberg said.

In Rome, the Vatican congregation indicated that radically different theological views of God and Jesus Christ necessitated the rebaptism of Mormon converts.

The congregation said that the Catholic Church could not accept Mormon belief that "God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit."
(...)

Shipps, a member of the United Methodist Church, said the effort in recent years to underscore the church's Christianity is actually a return to its historic claims as the restored church of Jesus Christ.

That underlying Christian faith claim, she said, was eclipsed during the late 19th and early 20th centuries when Mormon temple rituals and other doctrines were stressed.
Questioner
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 10:12 am
Bottom line is, most "Christians" will vote Republican simply because the Democratic party has been so successfully demonized by politicians and the issue of abortion and gay-rights in the past.

The issue of the Republican candidate likely being Mormon will be rationalized away by the pseudo-acceptance of the separation of church and state, despite the irony.

And as JL Fuller said, and my experience with the Mormon community has shown, if you or your family show a lack of interest in their religion, they'll leave you alone after a few contacts. You don't have to worry about them aggressively pursuing you after you've made it plain that you're not interested. That, at least, has been my experience here. The Mormon church are the experts at going after the lowest-hanging fruit. The least amount of time they have to spend getting a new notch in their belt the better.



0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 10:32 am
@JL Fuller,
JL Fuller wrote:

Readers should be aware that the ordinance is strictly an offering. It makes no demands on the departed. A living person performs this ordinance at the request of a relative of the dead person or, if they are LDS, the relative performs the ordinances (there are four) themselves.

A departed soul makes the decision about whether to accept or reject what the living have done on his or her behalf. Nothing is forced. It should also be made clear that the dead are not carried on the records of the church as a member. In fact the only record kept is that the ordinance has been performed and such things as the date and location where the ordinances were performed.

This offering can be better understood if it is looked at as being similar to Catholics praying someone out of purgatory although the theology is much different.

What total and complete bunk... All that ritual and sacrament... It is all symbolism with substance...The more people cannot do right on their own the more they need the forms of faith and works... Religion is no cure, and is much of the cause of the malignacy of humanity... If we could conceive of ourselves as animals we would cease blowing reality to buy spiritual fulfillment... If we want to die, try suicide... But poor innocent animals have to live here after us, so why should we destroy their world by way of self destruction??? All these religions in the Judeo Christian line are the enemy of humanity as paganism never was...
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 11:47 am
@maxdancona,
In the Catholic religion you are so down on there is a belief that if people had had the chance to learn about christian religion and the baptismal rite they would have wanted to be baptised and are entitled to heaven. Forget what they call the belief.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 11:51 am
@Frank Apisa,
Thanks Frank. Couldent remember baptism of desire. Been out of school for 65 years and have lost much of my learning.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 12:55 pm
@RABEL222,
For the record, I am down on all religions, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists. They all have the same problems with reality.

I just don't have a problem with any practice that doesn't directly affect me.




0 Replies
 
JL Fuller
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 03:28 pm
@BumbleBeeBoogie,
There is no let down on the part of LDS Church regarding Catholicism’s refusals. LDS theology says every human being who has ever lived or will ever live on this planet will have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Christ and the ordinances we perform in temples. No one will be left out. It is just a matter of when. Of course the innumerable people who have lived on earth without leaving a record will be offered as well. Everyone.

Those names for which there is no record will have their temple work performed for them during the 1000 year reign of Christ in what is kn0wn as the millennial reign of Christ. At that time, the heavens will be opened to the living and the names of those people will become known.

In Mormon theology, the reason the Church was restored was because the priesthood - aka the sole authority to act and seal in the name of God - was lost when the last apostle died circa 75 A.D. None of the baptisms performed by men after that are valid (until after the the priesthood was restored) as there was no one alive who had authority to perform them. I suspect that part has something to do with how other Christian denominations view LDS theology.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 03:55 pm
@JL Fuller,
Is there any digging up involved?
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 04:15 pm
@JL Fuller,
JL Fuller wrote:

I suspect that part has something to do with how other Christian denominations view LDS theology.


Actually, one of the largest problems that Christian demonstrations have is that your fledgling theology has changed so frequently so quickly in order for you to be accepted by mainstream society and other Christians.

You claim to belong to Christ, yet your theology on works negates the power of his gift. Your origins include Polygamy (which you ditched at the first sign of persecution), belief of ascendency to godhood (which most stakes don't teach anymore), among other things.

Your organization was founded on the precept of being set apart from mainstream Christianity and yet your 'apostles' and 'prophet' continually change your core beliefs and methodology to more closely conform to mainstream Christianity so that you'll be more widely accepted and gain more followers.

Essentially a parasitic religion.

The only thing you guys really have going for you is a decent family-forward culture, which at least on the surface looks good. Until you take into account the large numbers of depression in the state of Utah, primarily due to the high expectations and extreme scrutiny that everyone belonging to your organization is subject to or risk being cast out.

maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 04:45 pm
@Questioner,
You are full of crap.

Mormons gave up polygamy in the US in 1890.
"Mainline" Christians gave up owning slaves in the US 1865.

The idea that mainline Christians are superior in any way to any other religion is ridiculous.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 06:20 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Mormons gave up polygamy in the US in 1890.
"Mainline" Christians gave up owning slaves in the US 1865.


Neither of them of their own volition.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 07:21 pm

Quote:
Would "Christians" vote for Mitt Romney if they knew Mormons
rebaptise other religions' deads?
I doubt that thay care much.
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 07:40 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are full of crap.

Mormons gave up polygamy in the US in 1890.
"Mainline" Christians gave up owning slaves in the US 1865.

The idea that mainline Christians are superior in any way to any other religion is ridiculous.


If that's how you want to read it, kudos to you.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 Feb, 2012 07:47 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You are full of crap.

Mormons gave up polygamy in the US in 1890.
"Mainline" Christians gave up owning slaves in the US 1865.

The idea that mainline Christians are superior in any way to any other religion is ridiculous.


Actually, I'm just going to go ahead and respond to this.

Firstly, I never said Christians were superior than any other religion, although I do, in fact, believe that they are the only 'correct' religion. I don't press THAT view here on a2k because I know that most people think religion is pure idiocy (I used to be one of them) and so largely I stay away from it.

Secondly, I DO know what I am talking about in the items I addressed in my previous post. I have some fairly extensive and personal experience with both sides of the issue. Do you?

Lastly, I wasn't pointing out polygamy as a 'OH YOU HORRIBLE PEOPLE' bullet point, I was pointing it out as an example in which their theology has drastically changed to conform to a more mainstream christian viewpoint. This was done in large part to conform to what the rest of the country/world sees as 'acceptable' Christianity.

So go blow it out your ass.
 

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