Reply
Thu 29 Jan, 2004 10:55 am
As I watched the History Channel (HC) version of the Goths I tried to piece together a book I read in 95 or 96: GERMANY From the Earliest Period by Wolfgang Menzel, book is dated 1899. After dusting the book off, I reread the chapters about the Goths (after the HC version) and either this book is fiction or the History Channel is fiction. I only watched the first Goth part and not the one after the fall of Rome.
The HC stated that the Goths came from their ancestral homeland (North of the Black Sea), the Goths came from an area known as Gothland, Sweden; went across the Baltic (date is debated, 3BC to 100AD) and landed on what is Danzig. They defeated the present Vandals and Ulmerugi and faced resistance from the Saxons (west) so they migrated more to the South and either made other tribes run out of the way or they were absorbed into the Goths until they reached (toward the close of the 2nd century) the north Black Sea area where a tribe called Splany inhabited. What tribes joined them? Gepidae, Longobardi (Denmark area), Heruli (Scandia origins also), Vandali, Rugii, Burgundians from the Oder, Jazyges, Roxoalni. The majority of Goths never did even go across the Baltic in this venture; the majority of Goths never faced the Huns, or the Roman, they weren't defeated by any of these because they were in Sweden or stayed in various parts of Europe were the migration crossed.
HC stated that the Huns drove them (Goths) to seek Roman protection. First off in 270 (Rome fell in 409) a split happened among the Goths which one was either a Visigoth(west) or OstroGoth (east) in which they had their separate leaders/kings. The Visigoth tribe (not all of them) mostly took this condition (of encampment) as Visi/Ostro Goths were all over the Region and not just in this "Roman protection camp." In fact many Ostrogoths allied with the Huns. The HC kept on using the term "Goths" during the show and I don't recall hearing any Visigoth or Ostrogoth classifications. . Again, I repeat, the majority of Goths (in Greece, Asia Minor, Southern Europe, etc.,) of either division were not in this encampment or were mercenaries (for Rome or enemies of Rome, or independent).
HC also stated that Marcinople was looted by "Goths" because they needed food and weren't allowed in the gates. Fridigern was invited into Marcainople by the governor Lupicinus for a banquet as well as other Visigoth chiefs, when a long period of time passed, the Visigothic encampment nearby wanted in the walls to check on the safety of kin. Lupicinus ordered his "guests to be killed, Fridigern said if they are freed the Visigoth horde wouldn't attack the walls. Fridigern left and was true to his word. HC presented the Visigoths as food beggars, they may have looted Marcinople latter, but it was no food riot that motivated them.
Another problem after reading this book versus the HC is the account where Fridigern was motivated by the Roman treatment of his people at the "protection camp." First off, the goal of the Goths was to attack the Roman empire as they had warred mostly in the east with Romans for 20 years before even becoming mercs for Rome; in 192 AD at such a meeting three of their chiefs were struck by lightning at such a meeting on how to defeat the empire and it was considered a bad omen at the time to ensue. In the commencement of the third century, they were strong enough to get emperor Caracalla to give tribute, and tribute followed many other times before the Fall of Rome. Secondly, when Valens (8-9-378) was killed in battle the Visigoths mostly remained in Greece in mercenary status again under the Roman Emperor Theodosisu. It seems that the "protection camp" really didn't offend that much, or was HC trying to spin something else? Why would they go back to Romans if they were so mistreated? Or was it a different batch of Visigoths?
Alaric, HC said he didn't like his fellow Goths being destroyed or used for cannon fodder, I cannot find any info in this. Can anyone other quote me a source on this matter?
Alaric came in the time where Goths came into the highest offices of state in the Roman empereor. The Roman historians of that time even acknowledged that the Germans were deemed men, and the Romans women. The style of the Gothic furs was in style among the Roman Senators in place of the toga. At this time a split in the empire of Rome had already happened the East (Constantinople) West (Rome), Alaric fought in the imperial army for the west and took advantage of this split. Alaric was a descendant of the Balti, who when nominated Visigoth king invaded Greece in 396, sparing Athens alone, because he said he saw Pallas standing at the gates, the city patron (a superstition notion).
HC said Alaric was mad at the 10,000 loss of Goth life the Romans lossed in battle in 394; and that motivated him for revenge. HC didn't mention that Visigoths would do battle with Alaric in the short future. Yes, Goth vs. Goth in Pollentia and Verona (two battles). Stilico (West Roman General leading these Visigoth mercs) was accused of treason to the Western Roman Empire and was killed, together with the wives and children of 30,000 Germans. A payment of tribute wasn't paid to Alaric also. This was the last straw? Which one? Non-payment or the 30 grand, 10 Grand or all? Here is the Good Part that HC didn't tell you when Alaric went unopposed to Rome: "What will be left of us?" asked the Romans. "Life" was the answer. "We are still numerous" they threatened. "Then come out, the thicker the hay the easier it is to mow." Alaric said. Simply Beautiful. The tribute to the Visigoths were 5000 lbs. Of gold, 30,000 pounds of silver and other commerce quality items. Alaric didn't sack Rome until later (guessing 3-10 years after the stated tribute) after the last Roman army was destroyed, Brennus (Celt Gaul) first sacked Rome in 391BC.
Remember, I'm not an expert on Goth history but a lot of stuff HC didn't bother to even say in which they should?'ve. They had enough time to get things right in the basic sense; after reading I didn't get any feeling of poor, starving, hungry Goths who had to fight because he had no other option--what HC tried to instill in the viewer. Remember, this is a general account (some detail) of the Gothic History I have told, read the book as I have stated above, though this book may be a hard find as I cannot find it on a search engine or a online book seller; many things (majority) that I read I didn't even type and there is some gaps of information the author doesn't know or isn't telling. And I didn't really even mention the Ostrogoth history or the numerous other Germanic tribe involvement. Some time frame info: 250AD Gothic army under Cniva defeated the Romans at Beraea where 100,000 men were put to the sword. During the March toward Greece, the emperor Decius and son were drowned in a lake by Goths when defeated. 269: Asia minor, cyprus, and the temple of Diana were destroyed by Goths.
Other tidbits found:
Odin performed his nine mortal places of wounding to make Valhalla in front of the Swedes and Goths.
Goths and Swedes were two distinct members of the same monarchy
Goths didn't originally come from Sweden (took it from the Macromanni)
Some contend Goths came from Asia before history can record as their language resembles Persian and Sanscrit
Those who came from Mecklenburgh and Pomerania were called Visigoths; those from S.Prussia, NW Poland were Ostrogoths--this split wouldn't happen until later 270AD, obviously a specific family allegiance to a Chieftain line
It is supposed that Odin was the chief of a tribe of barbarians which dwelt on the banks of the Lake Maeotis, till the fall of the Mithridates and the arms of Pompey menaced the North with servitude. From the frontiers of the Asiatic Sarmatia into Sweden with design of having freedom of religion and a people, which in some remote age, might be subservient to his immortal revenge; when his invincible Goths armed to chastise the oppressors of mankind.
When the Goths reached the north Black Sea area, they discovered great fertile ground, rivers to travel, plenty of game and fish, good weather for most types of grains and produceĀ
But the Goths withstood all these temptations and still adhered to a life of idleness, poverty and rapine.
THE HISTORY OF THE GOTHS COULD BE A 5 MOVIE TRILOGY EASILY and STILL THAT WOULDN'T COVER IT ALL FROM PAST TO PRESENT. MAYBE IN AN AGE OF FREEDOM THIS ONE DAY WILL HAPPEN.
A quick basic run-through: The Goths did indeed originate in Scandanavia. About 2500 years ago, the success of their life style had lead to overpopulation, and they began to cross the Baltic to what is now Pomerania. They originally pushed west, but ran into the German tribes which had already been migrating in that direction. Moving up the valleys of the Elbe and Oder rivers was natural, and moving east eased the pressure from the tribes to the west of them. They eventually did reach the region of Eurasia north of the Black Sea, and may have extended as far east as the Caspian. It was during the long period in which they inhabited that region that the Gothic migrants split into Visigoths (western Goths) and Ostrogoths (eastern Goths). It sounds as though the History channel took up the tale from the point at which the Hunnic migration drove them east toward the Roman Empire. In general, the History channel bears the same relationship to history that Christian Science does to science.
I'm again in agreement with Setanta. We should also point out that a great deal of scholarship has taken place since the publication of your book in the late 19th century. If you are interested in the period and subject, I would recommend a survey of historical papers/books from credible recent historians. I'm sorry that I can't recommend anyone, or any text in particular. Not my period, interest, nor the subject of my study
J. M. Barry was for most of the 20th century considered to be the expert on "barbarian" migrations in Europe. Unfortunately, he was primarily a lecturer. His standard lectures were combined into a book which i believe was entitled The Barbarian Invasions of Europe. It's a good read, but all too brief.
Menzel's book is origianally dated from 1848, btw (Menzel died 1873, was famous for his literature critics, published/edited an own litterature magazine and only a "part time" historian).
De ori gi ne actibusque Getarum ("On the Origin and Deeds of the Getae"), now commonly referred to as the Getica, was completed in 551 by Jordanes, a Goth "historian".
And it was in that very book, where Jordanes reported the Goth's own legend that they originated in southern Scandinavia and crossed in three ships under their king Berig to the southern shore of the Baltic Sea, where they settled after defeating the Vandals and other Germanic peoples in that area.
THE GOTHS
here is an article that you may find of interest >>>
THE GOTHS
I watched the History Channel Series and while I'm no historian the tale related pretty well along the lines of what is in the link hamburger provided.
But a lot of your comments go beyond what was covered in the show. That may be necessary for a serious Historian or someone with a deeper interest in history but the History Channel was only providing an over-view in less than an hour here.
For example, the Goths may very well have originated from Gotland but the show didn't attempt to go back that far in their history and picked up with their migration from Pomerania.
IMO, you expected way to much from a program that took less time to air than it took for you to type out your post.