What is free will?

Hey Fil.

This dead thread deserves some reviving effort. What's your take on free will?

Let's see if you and I can disagree on something. )

What's your take on free will? >>

We are products of unintentional, constructive and destructive, brainwashing (behavior conditioning) that causes everything we do, say, and what we think,
and since our lives are already pre- programmed, we can't have free will.

When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained. Mark Twain

Even while you post on this thread. LOL

Is your opinion on free will also pre-programmed, and if yes, why should I believe it?

I wonder who pre-programmed rickoshay to participate on a2k if he has no free will?

Pre progreamed n causally deterministic are 2 distinct things...n no there is no such a thing as free will...those 2 words are mutually exclusive, they hardly can be set together out of a common sense approach.

Please explain

This is not likely to achieve any changes of mind; it's not an effort at debate; it's merely an expression of a perspective. I have reservations regarding the notion of Determinism because that's a general metaphysical model based on notions of "cause" and "effect" which are no more than constructs helpful to think with but not descriptive of the world.
In a way I see an element of predestination in my existence, viz., when I look to the future I imagine an open-ended field for creative construction, but when I look to the past I see inevitability. My "worldview" seems to consist of free-will looking forward and determinism looking backward. On the other hand, my pre-programmed or inevitable present (the tailend of the past, in linear terms) is not inconsistent with a feeling of freedom because I identify not with an ego (small self) that is the object of historical (causal?) events; I identify but with the entire moving context itself: I am the program , what I choose to call my true (large) Self--and that feels like freedom.
Just a point of view.

Sounds reasonable, but rather than looking back and calling it determinsm, I'm sure there's another word that better describes what was accomplished or what resulted from our actions/choices.

Sounds reasonable, but rather than looking back and calling it determinsm, I'm sure there's another word that better describes what was accomplished or what resulted from our actions/choices.

Sounds right. "Determinism" seems to ignore the role of choice or freedom in bringing us to the present.

We enjoy a book, film, play... (and in a sense all are illusory)... but the outcome is determined before we view them... if life is the same then we can enjoy the journey... the vista of our lives...

However, movie scripts do not have to follow the book 100%, and even may have a different ending.

I never understood why so many people believed in determinism... Seems so unlikely to be true to me. Imagine: the whole story of the whole universe since the dawn of time till the end of time pre-scripted???? That's a LOT of script...

At least we can agree on one subject, heh, Olivier? LOL

The whole point of determinism is that you do not have to write a script. Complex things can happen based on simple rules like F = G[(m1*m2)/r^2]. See the n-body problem for information of how a simple mathematical model can produce highly complex outcomes:



These n-body simulations can be much more complex. The video was only showing the motion of three particles based on Newton's Law of Gravitation. I think that for n > 3 particles there are not exact solutions to the models. We have to use approximation techniques for more particles. It becomes exponentially harder to generate the model with increasing n (plus the model is only in 2D imagine 3D for n > 3). But the idea is that with very little original information a complex system arises based on one equation for gravitational force and the interaction of the points under that force.

I am determined to participate in free will debates! No!!!

Still, the whole idea strikes me as utterly improbable, unsupported by facts or theory, and a waste of time of cosmic proportion... As to Newtownian mecanics, you're right that we can't solve the equation for more than three bodies. So for all we know, there could be several solutions... Meaning unpredictable outcomes.

Igm, I do think of my life as a complex narrative, illusory insofar as it is subject to interpretation, indeed meaningless without interpretation. And by "complex narrative" I am confident that it is subject to many possible alternative interpretations.

Under Newtonian gravity we do know that for any moment in time, every particle will have a particular position and velocity. There cannot be multiple solutions in such a situation given any set of initial conditions. The outcome is completely determined by the initial conditions (number of particles, their positions, their velocities) and the rule of interaction (Newtonian gravity).

That doesn't mean we can model an n-body problem faster than reality might be able to do it. Or include all the forces affecting the system of particles in our model. I think whether you think you have freewill or are determined, you will not have to worry about your actions being completely predicted anytime soon.

Because all of the particles are always in flux, there's no possibility of predicting any future outcome.

It's not a matter of n-body factors; it's about future unpredictability of what the particles will do. The earth goes through climate change; we couldn't predict this winter and summers weather patterns only 12 months ago.

There's no way to predict the flux/change.

How much of it is influenced by nature vs humans? We have thousands of airplanes flying around every day; how does that impact the environment today, next year, ten years, 50 years?