With regard to the exchange between Cav and Steve--recognition of Isreal by the United States in 1948 was a policy move by Harry S. Truman. I like ol' Harry, and think he did a lot of good. However, in this particular case, allow me offer two words: re-election campaign.
Katy, your well reasoned argument degenerates into a mindless rant for lack of objectivity and regard to facts.
Quote:Jew-hate is a social pathology that has infected most of the world's population for longer periods of time than any other mental illness.
Reference please.
Quote:Instead of examining the roots of such individual or national failure, people prefer to redirect such painful, self-critical energy towards the more satisfying and cathartic power of hatred, and towards the immediate reward of violence against those who are guaranteed to never hit back, i.e. the Jews.
Only Jews? Surely many other scapegoated individuals and peoples thoughout history, part of the human condition. "guaranteed to never hit back" ! How do they know this? Not true in Israel today
Quote:because Jew-hate or Anti-Semitism has been an internationally condemned and politically incorrect emotion since the Holocaust, those who engage in it, have redirected their hate for individual Jews, towards hating the State of Israel.
Logical fallacy and patently not true in reality. See this bunch of anti semites
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Quote:Several years ago, the United Nations became responsible for today's resurgence of Jew-hate and terrorist violence.
To legitimize the evil of terrorism, they adopted the deplorable resolution that terrorists would henceforth be recognized as being FREEDOM FIGHTERS.
date? This is sloppy. Make reference to the actual resolution if you want to use it as part of your argument.
Quote:This, of course, denied Israel the right to defend itself against terrorist attacks.
This is nonsense. The right of self defense is enshrined under the UN Charter.
Quote:......compassion for Palestinian murderers......
here you give your game away. No one mentioned "Palestinian murderers" let alone stated they had any sympathy for them. You appear to be merely a fanatical apologist for the Israeli government. 7/10 for effort.
To address c.i.'s post, I think it is sad and misguided that people who are anti-Sharon are labelled anti-semites. This simply is not true. Many Jews who do not support Israel's current policies are torn. They are afraid to speak up because they might be labelled "self-hating Jews". This is ridiculous. A relative of mine is ex-Mossad. He originally joined because he loved Israel, and wanted to serve his country. He left because of his disgust with the reality behind the veil. They are none too happy with the books he has written about them, and there have been several "unexplained" attempts on his life, including a somewhat recent firebombing of his house.
truth
I believe that Jew-hatred (anti-semitism) is, in some countries, a form of institutionalized paranoia and in some individuals a manifestation of clinical paranoia. But this does not let Isreal off the hook regarding their policies. It is no more anti-semitic to condemn Sharon's policies than it is unpatriotic for Americans to condemn those of G.W.Bush.
Quote:I have learned it's a useless verbal battle with people who think our disagreements with Sharon's policies mean we hate all Jews. c.i.
I wish I read this before my last post ci! You're probably right.
Set, leaving aside the obvious point of divergence as to whether re election campaign is two words or three, I would really like to hear from you about Truman's rush to recognise Israel. I understand he went against the wise counsels of George Marshall and Forrestal*
*tried to find out his initials but I don't think USS can be right
cavfancier wrote:Steve (as 41oo) wrote:OK I agree
So why the rush to recognise Israel in 1948?
Well, anyone who is Jewish would like to think that it was a benevolent gesture by the UN in the wake of 1/3 of the Jewish population being slaughtered in the holocaust, but the truth is, they needed an ally in a volatile area they previously had no control over, but were buying a ton of oil from. Politics is oily by nature, it seems.
Not just the holocaust, but jews were being persecuted all over the world. Israel was agreed on as the place to let Jews immigrate to from wherever persecution was. The US helped set this up, and (here's one example) requested Jews be allowed to leave the Soviet Union (where they were literally being tortured) in exchange for things like technology from the U.S. There was agreement but then the US set it's standards too high (b/c of inner political bickering) and it didn't happen in this particular case: Jackson-Vlanick (sp?) agreement.
When were the Helsinki accords?
I believe his name was James Forrestal, Boss, and on even dimmer recollection, that the middle initial was V., but don't quote me. Truman was already voted out of office by "the smart money," so much so, that Dewey hardly campaigned at all. Truman decided to get on the stump--he "whistle-stopped" his way across the country, promising huge farm subsidies (secure in the knowledge that a Republican Congress, not yet concerned with "the plight of the family farm" would not approve any such measures), he desegregated the U.S. military by executive order, he recognized Israel, and "took out political loans" with any other group which came to mind. I have also read that Marshall and Forrestal advised against this, as Begin and company were considered terrorists in their day, and the bombing of the King David Hotel was fresh in the minds of those in the know. Truman was correct in his political gamble, however, that the general American public was not concerned with the British war against communists in Greece, and the Jews in Palestine, and that he could safely ingratiate himself with American Jews with a gesture which would be innocuous to most of the electorate. His successor, Eisenhower, eventually had to deal with the consequences when in 1956, the French and British seized the Suez Canal, and the Israelis went to war with the UAR.
merci mon ami
Whetted my appetite for a little research on this period of Anglo American relations...but to bring us bang up to date
And now it is in olde England
Ye merrie **** doth hit the fan
For Clare the Short has said a thing
(Much grief to Tony that it bring)
Throughout the diplomatic struggle
'Twas Kofi's phone our shame!
We buggled.
Re: Why are Jews hated by so many people?
Heywood wrote:Why are Jews hated by so many people?
Because the peoples think, that Jews has the most money of the world.
truth
Thok, is that also the answer to the question, "Why are Americans hated by so many people?"
This reminds me of an old saying: "There is no compassion where there is no understanding".
Ancient history by some relates to the time of the "devastation" whereby a female Angel commonly referred to as "the mother of Israel" had been rescued from drowning when the Angels supposedly fell from the skies. Her humility led her to sleep out in the fields and become somewhat lacadaisical...she couldn't deal with life other than on a sexual level. Her children followed in her ways and evolved into a similar lifestyle in many ways. Some of the others (people of God) felt compassion for those "sleepyheads" and tried to motivate them by taunting them and getting them angry. It worked somewhat.
One can easily see that little has changed.
They are not bad people generally. They can appear obnoxious perhaps to those who know nothing about them. It might appear that their "New Testament" faith has become somewhat too elitist with regard to its not encompassing all of what Religion is about and the impression to some that the people of Israel are somehow chosen "special" above others. This is simply a misconception.
I just remember something, that shows a little bit how powerful people think Jews are. With a good friend of mine - which I consider very intelligent - I had a talk about Jews, and I just asked him for fun "how many Jews do you think there are in this world?" He said "at least 100 million" - how else could they be so "powerful"?.
First reaction of me was laughing and saying the total number of Jews in this world is 14 million, but after that I was shocked that even this friend has been influenced by the thought that "Jews are everywhere".
Rick......a Canadian group researched Jewish populations around the world and arrived at the conclusion that if it were not for Jew-Hate's murder of Jews, there'd be 250 million of them, today.
....en van je hela hola, houd er de moed maar in......
Just heard on the radio today that Israel does not recognize any marriage outside of orthodox marriages. Nothing lika a little freedom of religion in their "democracy."
What significance has the goy-hate of Judaism had in the Jew-hate of the goys, historically speaking?
Wow thats interesting (and shocking actually) to hear katya...and what's with the Dutch song? :wink:
truth
C.I., I find that very strange. Does it mean that EVERYONE marries in the Hassidic ceremony even if they are not orthodox in their Judaism? Perhaps the State recognizes civil marriages but not the religious hierarchy. In Mexico a couple can marry by the civil rules and/or the church. But if they marry ONLY by the Church they fail to enjoy certain legal privileges (and I think that their children are considered illigitimate in terms of the law).
I had a jewish girlfriend once, who was totally hot. She only let me have sex with her once, and I've hated her for that ever since.
Guess it wasn't one of my better performances.
For what I read about it JLNobody, cicerone imposter is right: if secular Israelis want to marry, they have to do that outside Israel. Approximately 50,000 Israelis marry each year outside Israel, mostly in Cyprus. When they come back their marriage IS recognized by the State, but if they want to marry in Israel, they have to do that according to the Jewish religious laws.
