20
   

Why are Jews hated by so many people?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 04:04 pm
@izzythepush,
True, the Jews did not enjoy continuous protection.
But, they continued as a group able to trace their geneological roots until 70 CE. And, BTW, a huge number of Christians escaped as soon as the temple was first breached in 66.

And, I certainly did not mean to imply that thousands of years of persecution were deserved any more than our eventuality of death is deserved.

So I do have some history on which to hang my hat.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 04:21 pm
@neologist,
Some, but it's hardly impartial, and it would not be unreasonable to concur that you're saying the Jews are being punished because of the crucifixion.

Taking that assumption, some have taken it to mean their persecution has God's blessing. That mindset has lead to all sorts of abominations and should be rejected. You may not agree with such a mindset, but you're not exactly challenging it.
Setanta
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 04:33 pm
Very likely, if there ever actually was a Jesus, he was not executed under Roman law. Pilate was a prefect. He had no authority to try or to execute anyone. Had he wished to do so, he would have been obliged to send his prisoner to the Legate for Syria.

As Izzy points out, the Romans simply put down a rebellion by the Jews. Two subsequent Jewish uprisings, first in Hellenistic districts in which there were large Jewish populations, put down by Trajan, and then a final uprising in Palestine put down by Hadrian, eventually resulted in the so-called diaspora. Jews, and the sect we call Christians, considered to be Jews by the Romans, continued to defy the imperium and to draw the ire of thei neighbors because they would not pay lip-service to the civic religion. One could practice any religion one chose, so long as one paid an occasional respect to the civic religion. Most of the grossly exaggerated tales of the persecutions of Jews and Christians in the early centuries of this era were in fact cases of local people attacking them because they did not want to suffer from official oppression because their lunatic Jewish and Christian neighbors persistently insisted on public defiance of the requirement to pay an entirely transparent and illusionary respect to the civic religion.

When the lunatic Commodus was murdered, and his ineffectual successor Pertinax was murdered by the connivance of the Praetorian prefect, the largest army left in the empire was commanded by Septimius Severus, a brilliant soldier born of a humble family in Libya. Pertinax has been a good soldier, but no politician, and had made the mistake of trusting the Praetorians, or at least not mistrusting them. The object of the Praetorians was to do what they had done so often in the past, to auction off the imperium to the highest bidder. Unlike so may of his predecessors, when he had defeated his enemies, Severus did not bribe the Praetorians, he disbanded them, executing most of their officers, piously proclaiming that he avenged Pertinax.

Severus was married to a Syrian woman, and as he put down those who challenged him, he had word of a probable challenge from Syria. He then defeated a rebellion there, which had had the support of prominent Hellenistic community leaders, who happened to be Christians. Severus cut a swathe through the Christian community, and the formerly arrogant Christians rushed to propitiate the civic religion and swear their undying loyalty to Severus. As was subsequently the case, the Christians had backed the wrong horse. They weren't killed for the religious devotion, they were killed because of their political and military stupidity. This is a pattern which was repeated until they finally backed Constantine, who was not stupid, either politically or militarily.

By that time, the empire knew the difference between Christians and Jews, and most Christians then were the sons and daughters of the Hellenistic world.

It is claimed that Augustine of Hippo condemned usury. Whether or not he did, the church did not declare lending money at interest to be a sin until 1311. But the claim persisted, and as the Franks, Goths, Vandals, Burgundians, Lombards and other peoples who deserved the name of barbarian when it came to understanding economics sank increasingly into debt to Jews, it was useful stir up the peasants against the Jews, and so take the quickest path to the forgiveness of debt. Usually they cooked up stories of the ritual sacrifice of Christian babies--you could hardly expect serfs to give a rat's ass if the local Germanic baron had gotten in over his head with money lenders.

The technique worked so well that soon the practice of setting the commoners on the Jews was used whenever a political distraction was needed. Not everyone in either Christian or the Muslim world was so stupid--Jews ere very useful for carrying on the trade between those two essentially hostile camps. Some people actually protected Jews--the rulers of Venice and of Morocco are prominent examples.

It is really pathetic to see religious hysterics try to trot out stories that they have been the victims of persecution because their preferred fairy tales are superior to all others.
Setanta
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 04:34 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
So I do have some history on which to hang my hat.


Bullshit--that's never been true in the drivel you post here.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  0  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 04:46 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Some, but it's hardly impartial, and it would not be unreasonable to concur that you're saying the Jews are being punished because of the crucifixion.

Taking that assumption, some have taken it to mean their persecution has God's blessing. That mindset has lead to all sorts of abominations and should be rejected. You may not agree with such a mindset, but you're not exactly challenging it.
OK, well I reject it. Human death is a consequence of Adamic sin. In fact, all human misery is a consequence of the events in Genesis.

But the operative word, imo, is consequence.
neologist
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 04:50 pm
@Setanta,
Oh, great. Now I actually have to read your post. Not easy to do on my phone, though. Later.

You are, of course, only partly correct.
Setanta
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 05:05 pm
@neologist,
You're not even partly correct. Genealogies are not reliable historical sources, and are only used when nothing better is available. It's too common for people to attempt to add luster to their own reputation by claiming illustrious ancestors. Witness those bullshit genealogies in your so-called new testament.
neologist
 
  1  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 05:15 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You're not even partly correct. Genealogies are not reliable historical sources . ? ?
Nevertheless, the Jews kept those records to identify the messiah. Whether you believe in a messiah or not, the Jews were certainly in expectation of one. Many still are, I suspect.
Ragman
 
  3  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 05:21 pm
@neologist,
Frankly, I'm Jewish but all that I'm expecting is a pizza.

Wait,,,wait - what's that clatter at my door?
Why, it's Saint Pizza!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 07:22 pm
@Setanta,
It's an interesting claim to make; that Jews are smarter than other people.
I guess it makes them feel superior - while showing they are ignorant.

Not all Jews have a 150 IQ; nor does any other culture.

neologist
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 07:45 pm
@Ragman,
Only if it's pepperoni
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 08:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't claim that Jews are smarter than other people.
Setanta
 
  2  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 08:09 pm
@neologist,
You're delusional . . . of course, we already knew that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 09:04 pm
@Setanta,
I never said you did; my mistake was posting after yours.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  0  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 10:22 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
OK, well I reject it. Human death is a consequence of Adamic sin. In fact, all human misery is a consequence of the events in Genesis.

But the operative word, imo, is consequence.


Okay. But if a god punishes the descendants of the person who originally committed the crime then god is unjust.

Now I know that it was a common way of punishment to both the person and punish their descendants. This was a legitimate way of carrying out punishment but to me it is unjust.

I know you think it is perfectly rational but here is why it is unjust. I didn't have the option of being born. I am a product of an action that I had no control over. To condemn me of a crime over something I have no control over is beyond unfair. Not to mention just plain silly.

It would be like your great great great grandfather was a thief so after you are born you get to continue carrying out his punishment by living your entire life in prison for his actions. How is that fair? You shouldn't be punished for something that you had no say in.

If I am being punished for Adams choices than Adam isn't the douche bag, god is. Just because I am his descendant shouldn't immediately convict me to wrong doing. I had no control over either case, being born, or committing the original sin.

However; this is the only way christians can implant the seed of guilt for existing. So it is necessary for them to implant this stupidity otherwise none of it makes any sense.

This is why they hate the theory of evolution because it discredits the original sin story. If evolution is true then we couldn't have originated from Adam. If we didn't originate from Adam then the concept of original sin is moot. If original sin is moot then the entire christian doctrine is nothing more than meaningless fables. Which is actually the case.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 10:51 pm
@Krumple,
To carry that idea further, all humans commit sins, so all descendants must be punished. It's a situation of a Catch 22 plus 2. LOL The cause is lost before one begins the journey.
Krumple
 
  0  
Sun 8 Mar, 2015 11:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

To carry that idea further, all humans commit sins, so all descendants must be punished. It's a situation of a Catch 22 plus 2. LOL The cause is lost before one begins the journey.


If that is the case then Jesus can not be said to be sinless. If he were born then he had to have had original sin by default. If he was able to live his 30 years committing no other sins then surely there was a way right? If there was a way then everyone would be subject to this way either by purpose or by accident but there must have been a way.

If there was no way at all and Jesus is some kind of exception to the rule the whole thing becomes convoluted. However; going back if there is a method and everyone has access to that method then by all means the overall suggestion that punishment through original sin is valid becomes unjust.
neologist
 
  1  
Mon 9 Mar, 2015 12:59 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Okay. But if a god punishes the descendants of the person who originally committed the crime then god is unjust.
As I said, the operative word is consequence., not punishment.

Humans are basically good. A fact often unnoticed by some christians:.
Quote:
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts . . (Romans 2:14,15)
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Mon 9 Mar, 2015 01:07 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Humans are basically good. A fact often unnoticed by some christians:.
What is your definition for "basically"? And I gotta say that from my eyes it looks like people are significantly more good than bad only if we work at it, and only if we are smart, both of which seem to be in short supply these days.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Mon 9 Mar, 2015 01:12 am
@Krumple,
Quote:
If that is the case then Jesus can not be said to be sinless. If he were born then he had to have had original sin by default. If he was able to live his 30 years committing no other sins then surely there was a way right? If there was a way then everyone would be subject to this way either by purpose or by accident but there must have been a way.


How quaint...arguing Biblical theory is rapidly going the way of reciting Latin conjugations.
 

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