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Why are Jews hated by so many people?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:18 am
hawkeye, Ragman is correct about there being no "iron link" of American Jews to Israel. Here's a study by the U of FL that explains it.


http://news.ufl.edu/2006/05/18/israel-lobby/
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hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:19 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
hawkeye, Not so hopeless as most of us think. I have a friend who lives in Seattle who has talked to a high ranking official of Israel, and they are making great effort to seek a long-lasting peace process with the support of Jews not only in the US, but all over the world. These are being accomplished "behind closed doors" for now, but most fair-thinking Jews know that they cannot continue subjugating the Palestinians forever and have peace.

I'll share any news I hear from my friend on these threads.


Israel's problem is that even if they should now decide they want a deal who would they negotiate with? Their behaviour has so stressed fractured and radicalized the palestinian society that there is almost nobody to deal with. You tell me? Maybe the jordanians would be willing to temporarly adopt Palestine? Egypt is such a mess I don't see how they could do it.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:26 am
hawkeye, That's the same response I had for my friend when he told me about this new effort to bring peace to Israel. Why don't we give them a chance, and give them a wait and see reasonable period of time?

I just can't write off my friend's enthusiasm for this new push for peace, and I also hope something comes out of this in good time. Hope is all we have left; why not? Let's think positive rather than the negatives we've all had for too long.
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hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:28 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
hawkeye, Ragman is correct about there being no "iron link" of American Jews to Israel. Here's a study by the U of FL that explains it.


http://news.ufl.edu/2006/05/18/israel-lobby/


The link is weakening quickly, another reason why Israel has no time to lose. I know that American Jew linkage to their heritage is weakening rapidly as well, and I see this as a good thing. If you want to say that the link as not been of iron since the war I would not agree, though of course Israel has played for Christian guilt over not stopping the holocaust sooner and for not paying more attention to the Jewish plight. Non Jewish support for Israel has been very important if not critical.
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Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:30 am
hawkeye10 wrote:

You can't deny the American Jew, Israeli Jew almost iron link. The state is only still here because of the American Jews using their power with the American Government to prop up the State. You also can't deny the spiritual and emotional pull of Israel upon American Jews. Not only do many personally support the state but also make pilgrimages to Israel and sometimes even move there for a time. How many hundreds of american Jews currently hold down the settlement outposts in palestine (yes i know it is not yet a legal state, but it should be and it will be)?

Be offended all you want, there is no doubt about the truth of which I speak.


So what is to you if some American Jews and some Jews around the world make pilgrimages to Israel? Likewise as other religions do, as well -Christians make pilgrimages to the Holy Land. So what? What is this proof of ... other than religious commitment. And if a Jew moves to Israel for a time? What is this proof of? And what percentage of Jews do this? If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 5-10% of practicing Jews.

Your rhetoric and conviction of Palestinian statehood is telltale. We're in agreement though, as I'm for Palestinian statehood, too. Just put it at arm's length distance from the nation of Israel.

Your version of the truth is only in your mind!
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Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:37 am
Hawkeye, at the risk of being repetitious, I reiterate:

Why is it that Palestinian's Arabic and Islamic brethren historically did/do not want to grant them nationhood in their lands?
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hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:39 am
Ragman wrote:


Your version of the truth is only in your mind!


Any enlightenment that you would care to take the time to offer would be appreciated.

At any given time about how many American Jews serve in the Israeli defense forces? Do you happen to know?
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Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:43 am
Americans and non-Israelis in IDF
No...I have no idea....but do you? Please enlighten us all?

Let's fast fwd this discusion ...Hypothetically could we agree on 10%? And if not that, what percentage would you think? And what would that be proof of? Some American Jews support Israel with their lives. Yes, undoubtedly.

What is the percentage of Palestinians who have lived in Israel for more than 20 years?

In the meanwhile, this may help shed a little light and insight on the subject of non-Israelis in IDF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces
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hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:57 am
Re: Americans and non-Israelis in IDF
Ragman wrote:
No...I have no idea....but do you? Please enlighten us all?

In the meanwhile, this may help shed a little light and insight on the subject of non-Israelis in IDF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Defense_Forces


If I knew i would not be asking. I know that Isreal heavily recruits Americsn jews for settlement, general relocation, and sometimes for the IDF, but i don't know how successful they are. I know that in 1978 members of the IDF were at my High School, it was claimed to be a cultural exchange program but they were actively recruiting for the IDF. Wikipeda has it:
Quote:
The Mahal2000 program is for non-Israeli Jewish men younger than 23 and women younger than 20. The program consists of 14 months of IDF service, including 4.5 months of training for those in combat units or 1 month of non-combat training. (Volunteers may also be required to spend extra time learning Hebrew before enlisting if necessary.) There are also two subcategories of Mahal, both geared specifically for religious men: Mahal Nahal Hareidi, in which units are comprised solely of religious men, and Mahal Hesder, which combines yeshiva study with IDF service for a total of 21 months.
Sar-El is a program for 16-year-old non-Israeli citizens. It usually consists of three weeks unarmed auxiliary service with (not in) the IDF.
Garin Tzabar accepts all Jews, although a basic knowledge of the Hebrew language is not mandatory, it is helpful. Of all the programs listed, only Garin Tzabar offers a full service in the IDF. The program is set up in stages: first the participants go through five seminars in the country of origin, and then one has the absorption period in Israel at a Kibbutz. Each Garin is adopted by a Kibbutz in Israel and has living quarters designated for the Garin. The Garin shares responsibilities on the Kibbutz when on military leave. Participants start the program 3 months before being enlisted in the army at the beginning of August
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Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 12:59 am
Yes, that is part of the info in the hypelink I supplied...and the point is?

And what would that be proof of? Some American Jews support Israel with their lives. Yes, undoubtedly.

"Isreal heavily recruits American Jews for settlement, general relocation, and sometimes for the IDF"

And the point is what? I contend that there is a small minority percentage of American Jews in IDF? so..this is proof of some support of american Jews. How is it with this small percentage you feel so threatened or offended by this?

What is the percentage of Palestinians who have lived in Israel for more than 20 years?

Also from this same info site, in that hyperlink:

"Six Israeli Arabs have received orders of distinction as a part of their military service; of them the most famous is a Bedouin officer, Lieutenant Colonel Abd el-Amin Hajer (also known as Amos Yarkoni), who received the Order of Distinction. Recently, a Bedouin officer was promoted to the rank of Colonel."
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hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:09 am
The point would be that it American Jews felt strongly enough about the cause to join the IDF, or at least did before the recent abuses in Lebanon and the occupied territories, then it would indicate a strong link between Israel and the American Jews. I did not point this out because it seemed too obvious to be worthy of note.

I know that a good number go the the settlements, but that is a different kind of gig. There is little risk to life, and many seem to go for all of the financial incentives Israel offers for American Jews to take up residence there.

American Jew willingness to enter the IDF would be a much better indicator of attachment and support of the cause then is the settlement program success at American Jew recruitment.
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Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:16 am
You waver about whether or not you think there is a strong link or weak link with American Jews and Israel...making contradictory statements.

Funny how you made no comment about the Six Israeli Arabs?

I'm bowing out right now as I'm leaving to pray for you to the Christian Saint... Saint Jude, the Apostle...the patron saint of desperate cases and lost causes. Laughing

I would hate to bring shame and to be thought of as an unreasonable Jew.

Twisted Evil
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:30 am
Ragman wrote:
Why is it that Palestinian's Arabic and Islamic brethren historically did/do not want to grant them nationhood in their lands?


Palestinian national identity began to develope since the time of Ottoman rule over Palestine and became more focused after the British took control of the area after the First World War through their Palestine Mandate, and incorporated--through wording taken from their Balfour Declaration--the intent to establish a homeland for a European people, the Ashkenazim (to whom it referred generally as "the Jewish people") therein.

Palestinian nationhood is centred around the country (here meaning "the land of a person's birth, residence, or citizenship" [def. 2a. Merriam-webster's Collegiate Dictionary) of Palestine as defined by that mandate established near the turn of the last century, and the legacy thereof.

Distinct national identities in the Middle East were established in the lands formerly colonized by the victorious European countries at different times as these colonizing countries eventually gave up control and granted independence.

After Transjordan took control of the West Bank after the catastrophe of 1948, its parliament sanctioned the annexation the region in 1950. The government suppressed most independent Palestinian political activity as subversive to Transjordanian national unity. Egypt which controlled the Gaza strip allowed limited Palestinian nationalist activity insofar as it would not interfere with its armistice agreement with Israel. Israel, which took control over the remaining Palestinians in the territory it usurped after the war, maintained a military government up until 1966 over that population, severely restricted the population's movement and political freedoms, and expropriated Palestinian land for the exclusive disposal of Jews.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:35 am
InfraBlue wrote:
Ragman wrote:
Why is it that Palestinian's Arabic and Islamic brethren historically did/do not want to grant them nationhood in their lands?


Palestinian national identity began to develope since the time of Ottoman rule over Palestine and became more focused after the British took control of the area after the First World War through their Palestine Mandate, and incorporated--through wording taken from their Balfour Declaration--the intent to establish a homeland for a European people, the Ashkenazim (to whom it referred generally as "the Jewish people") therein.

Palestinian nationhood is centred around the country (here meaning "the land of a person's birth, residence, or citizenship" [def. 2a. Merriam-webster's Collegiate Dictionary) of Palestine as defined by that mandate established near the turn of the last century, and the legacy thereof.

Distinct national identities in the Middle East were established in the lands formerly colonized by the victorious European countries at different times as these colonizing countries eventually gave up control and granted independence.

After Transjordan took control of the West Bank after the catastrophe of 1948, its parliament sanctioned the annexation the region in 1950. The government suppressed most independent Palestinian political activity as subversive to Transjordanian national unity. Egypt which controlled the Gaza strip allowed limited Palestinian nationalist activity insofar as it would not interfere with its armistice agreement with Israel. Israel, which took control over the remaining Palestinians in the territory it usurped after the war, maintained a military government up until 1966 over that population, severely restricted the population's movement and political freedoms, and expropriated Palestinian land for the exclusive disposal of Jews.


Yes..and Israel of 1967 chose to do so to defend it self against it's enemies AND Palestinians who were (and are) dedicated to the destruction of the State oF Israel...well documented.

So for the sake of peace in our lifetime, let's rally around the cause for a Palestinian state... outside of Israel's borders.
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Tigershark
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:52 am
Interesting stat I heard the other day, the ratio of Palestinian civilians killed compared to Israelis is 40:1.
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Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 01:59 am
Palestinian opposition to Israel is poorly funded, poorly organized and trained and undeveloped technologically. An explanation for this is poor support from Israel's enemies, I guess. OK...yes?!

OTOH, Israel is highly organized, well trained advanced militarily and technologically and well-funded. At the risk of sounding partisan, they are tough soldiers dedicated to defending against a sworn enemy.

Militarily, what should you expect for ratios in a war scenario such as this?

Are there excesses in Israel's military. Definitely Yes! Were there mistakes made with the military. As with all militaries, Yes.

What should there be done about settling a peace between Palestine and Israel? I proposed my suggestion before. Anyone else have something positive to offer as a solution instead of these off-topic statistics and red herrings and gripes about Israel?
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hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:09 am
Ragman wrote:
OTOH, Israel is highly organized, well trained advanced militarily and technologically and well-funded.


Not anymore, from the looks of the last run into Lebanon, or was that a simple leadership problem in your view?
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Ragman
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:10 am
Still we must recognize that the topic is 'Why Jews are Hated by So Many People.' These two subjects are not synonymous.
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Tigershark
 
  1  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:11 am
I'm talking about unarmed women and children, buddy.

Israeli TV showed two airforce pilots recently LAUGHING about blowing up a wedding party, killing 50 civilians.

People such as these two and cold bigots such as yourself pretty much answer the question posed in this thread.

BTW, I am part Jewish and do not hate them.
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hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 23 Feb, 2008 02:14 am
Ragman wrote:
Still we must recognize that the topic is 'Why Jews are Hated by So Many People.' These two subjects are not synonymous.


Except for Israel, for whom being hated + a weak military = problems

But your point is fair enough.
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