Reparations

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ditto

Actually, would it be untoward to think this through from an Australian perspective, in relation to Aboriginal Australians?

I would not feel qualified to comment much on the Americn reality - but I think similar issues are relevant here.....and I would likely maunder a lot, since reparations, as such, have not been much raised here - yet.

There are comments, though, about "paying the rent"......wry lol...

I live in a country with a long tradition of paying reparations :wink:

The former German Democratic Republic, on the other hand, ignored all claims re e.g. Jewish victims and Israel.

Craven, I don't think you could still sue the Confederate States Of America for anything at this point. Lincoln technically freed ALL the slaves in the area the Union controlled, so it's a moot point ('Yes, Mr Malcolm X your ancestors were freed, but they still owe the US a manumission fee which we are willing to waive if you just f@ck off').

It's a sad, sad thing 'reparations' aren't the sort of things a private individual can ask for. They are the things that a defeated nation may owe to its conquerer. Just ask the good citizens of Baghdad, trying to get some kerosine/paraffin for their stoves in the middle of the largest oil deposits on the planet.

My contribution to this thread:

C.U.R.E.

N'COBRA

Make sure you include good ole Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in there too!
Don't leave him out. He definitely didn't leave himself out of issues like this one.

It's awfully funny you mention the "fee".... I guess that shows your "roots" and how they run deep... deep.... deep into the Deep South. (Though King said he faced some of the most wickedly racist people in the North! Hmmmm.... )

________________________________________

We should also assess a "fee" to the Japanese Americans for the cost it took to intern them. You know... killing people and torturing them cost money! And we should also charge the Native Americans double for them damn casinos that they dare make money off of on land we "reserved" for them. They should be paying a special property tax for that like 50% or something. And getting the Killing "fee" they owe us can save our economy! :wink:

Sorry mate, any deeper South and I'd be freezing my arse of in Antarctica, I'm Australian!

Just pointing out that the only legal entity in NORTH America that could have such an obligation slated to it would be the Confederacy (that did legislate such differences between its citizens). The present government can wriggle out of any argument, much as the conservatives in power in Australia run with (not down, sorry) the argument that the forced (and illegal) removal of Aboriginal children from their parents was perfectly within the legal framework of the times.

The reason the Aboriginal people can't get an apology for the treatment from the Australian government is the fear it would be an admission, that would result in the payment of reparations.

Then your questions are what? Rhetorical??
No, I think they go to the heart of what is the whole validity issue.


Only the first question goes to your request for implementation info. though depending on a person's aversion to certain forms then it also falls into the validity trap. The last two are definitely, unabashed validity thingies! And "punititive" as well... what a nice emotional touch there!

I guess you must be joking here too! Because you have already "alternated".

Great!!!! A Global Reparations (status) thread!!

As I understand it reparations is not for services rendered during slavery but to level the economic playing field that was tilted due to slavery and discrimination after slavery.

I doubt the black leaders today would be in favor of a check sent out to every black person in the US. The implementation would be something along the lines of free private school and college education for all blacks and more liberal approval of home and small business loans.

i can see reparations via land restoration to the Leni Lenape or the Eriorhonon, or the cherokee more than I can see reparations to families of former slaves. However, the reality that most of the land of the lenis is sE pennsylvania and the Eriorhonon were wiped out by the Confederation of Iroquois.and would claim the area from rochester to Cleveland/ Distribution would be difficult or impossible, and would most likely be not used to restore ancient hunting and living grounds.

what does the concept of reparation serve ? How would they be calculated? since slavery is really a throwback to an agrarian society out of what selective conscience would the concept even hold merit?
I have no sympathy for the claims based upon personal circumstance and i would not like my tax dollars used for such payments. I venture to say that if it were put to a vote ...

Once again I find myself agreeing with the tenor of what Farmerman said.

Reparations aren't going anywhere -- nor should they.

Yeah! What he said!
(Though personally... I have other thoughts...)

But speaking about IMPLEMENTATION, I'd like to address how specious it is to talk about it without having established or agreed on the validity on it. First I will say that for anyone who seriously wants to know what the position are that are held by those in the Reparations Movement then... The InterNet is free (or at least you must already have access to it if you're on this site). Use the resource that's right in front of you. And, yes, ye110man, the idea of personal checks is not one that is at all seriously discussed. What you have said about education, etc. in one way shape or form is what is being advocated... I suggest those geniunely interested click on the N'COBRA link I posted. Both it and the CURE link answer a lot of the Frequently Asked Questions and I believe all of Craven's.

Now, it is obvious that if a person disagrees with an idea in theory then regardless as to how 'good' the practice is that same person will not see the merits of it. Revisit: COMMON GROUND

It is definitely necessary for people to agree in principle with the basic idea in order to even consider how to implement it and/or discuss practical ways to implement it because the "validity" of the idea and the resources/means it will take to bring it to fruition are all wrapped up together. People have a tough enough time agreeing on how to implement a program that they agree is needed, much less trying to see the merits of implementing something they vehemently oppose.

Again (for you Craven), the basis or should I say the original intent [LBJ - "To Fulfill These Rights"] and the basic purposes of Affirmative Action and Reparations are the same. That is unless you fool yourself and pretend that AA was implemented for reasons that had nothing to do with race or that racism and the inequality of opportunities occurred along racial lines (eventhough there are 'white' poor, the intergenerational effects and the black community wide underdevelopment, how the inner-cities reflect that intergenerational underdevelopment, etc., etc., etc. ... oh... and how the black community could have been more self-sufficient had it not been for etc., etc., etc.

So, right there two important things have come to surface. First, IMO, any such targeted program should be aimed at African Americans gaining the means by which to be self-sufficient. IMO, beyond resources that requires a permanent apparatus or mechanism that ensures that self-sufficiency and fosters it.

Also, what is missed in most anaylsis with the propensity to focus on the "individual", the fact that we are products in one way or the other of our enviroment and the resources available to us in those places that we live then a community based perspective is one that must be considered. By community I actually mean the infrastructure and all the institutions that make up the cities and town that we live in.

Simply educating individuals when they live in a place/city that's in constant decline will not elevate the community. A good, thriving, functioning community free of wide scale vice is the necessary backdrop to large scale people and community wide improvement.

Instead of just No Child Left Behind there should be No [Inner]-City Left Behind. There's a whole line of study about how the creation of the suburbs reflect racist government sanctioned policies to the detriment of largely black innercities, etc.

In terms of IMPLEMENTATION... simply put:
WHERE THERE IS A WILL. THERE IS A WAY!

As far as dollar amounts well, I just heard someone forward an idea of about $87 Billion for what they called a Thurgood Marshall Plan earmarked for the 50 neediest cities.

As far as who pays... I have a solution for that too!.... A way where none of those questions about "Why Should I Pay?" would be left unsatisfied. But, again, I have to question whether that is the real issue with people that are against reparations. It's been my experience that for the most part when [my] model that would eliminate that concern is offered that the objections still remain. So, I'm left to believe that it really is more than about something like this proverbially "Taking [My] Money" Again, I have a model that eliminates that but doesn't eliminate the opposition. Matter of fact, it usually becomes even more vehement afterwards.... Imagine that!

Myself, I'm more of a self-sufficiency, self-determination and more than anything a real democracy type of advocate (which I see as a reflection of those other two things.)

Is your opposition to reparations strictly about not paying your taxes towards such a program or is there something else to it?

If it's 'all about the money' then if there was a proposal that would not use your money would you approve of it or at least not disapprove of it?

I mean what is your real issue with it?
Money? or Other? or Money & Other?

If we forget about the resentment that much of white America would feel towards reparations, would anyone here deny that reparations would do a lot to lift a whole class of people? Would anyone here deny that even though the concept may be considered unequal treatment, that it would be a way to achieve true equality in the future? How can we even talk about equality without there being economic equality?

One can say that we can provide economic assistance to all poor Americans instead of dividing it up by race. But minorities do not have the same economic opportunities as whites even at the same income level. Discrimination is economical disadvantagous which leads to more discrimination. It's an unending cycle. Trying to prevent discrimination, while necessary, only goes so far.

my opposition is purely that. No taxes shall be used in my name to make alleged"reparations" since the validity of such payment has not been convincingly established. Also, Ive not seen a coherent model of the nature and use of these"reparations".
I believe in the old maxim that a rising river floats all boats. We should make sure that the vestiges of racism are done away with , that all educational opportunities are given in accordance with the individuals abilities to learn, and, if any remedial activities in education are necc to level the table, do these. as far as vast rebuilding projects of inner cities, I say, lets make the cities once again the cultural hot spots of the country , not for the purpose of creating a finer decorated ghetto, but lets abandon the silliness of building farther and farther from a rotting city core. In the US, weve become believing slaves to the concepts of failed regional planning concepts wherein roads to and from places have become more important than the places themselves.

In Pa, for example, the state has lost net population, yet specific counties, that surround the old decaying urban centers , are among the fastest growing places in the nation. Its not real growth, its merely shuffling around of the population and , for some reason we cannot make it desirable to live in the city. Philly is a major dump, its more like Newark New Jersey or Detroit, than NYC. One of the reasons is corruption in government. The present mayor of Philly is creating an enterprise zone for some fat cats and , by doing so, is letting the original place where all the businesses are departing, turn into a slum because no businesses will locate there any more if there are no tax benefits , and we stand there like fighting sheep whites and blacks while the green takes over.
ahhhh , dont get me going

Purely? ........ Okay! I have you down!

So, I would have your vote for a Reparations model that would not require your tax dollars? Is that the way for me to understand how "pure" your concern is for "your" tax dollars not to touch this?

(Man I wish I could just stop my taxes from going towards stuff I don't agree with. And, I guess I shouldn't mention how blacks unddoubted paid taxes towards their own detriment during segregation. Damn! That's even worst! Not only do you pay for something you don't care for but on top of that you pay for something that oppresses you and is silent for years about the brutality it permitted.)

I'm confused.... a model, it's nature and use and coherence of it all really isn't the issue is it? What does any of that matter if and when there is a model that would not require your taxes?

Am I to believe that the real underlying animus is what ye110man has mentioned - white and overall Playa Hatin' resentment?