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Here's more from Moore!

 
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 12:04 pm
January 23, 2004



George W. Bush, A.W.O.L.





In last night's Democratic Presidential debate in New Hampshire, broadcast on the Fox News (Nusciance?) Channel and ABC's Nightline, Peter Jennings went after Wesley Clark -- and me -- because I said I want to see Clark debate Bush... "The General vs. The Deserter."



Jennings, referring to me as "the controversial filmmaker," asked if Clark wanted to distance himself from me and my "reckless" remark. Clark would not back down, stating how "delighted" he was with my support, and that I was entitled to say what I wanted to say -- AND that I was not the only one who had made these charges against Bush.



The pundits immediately went berserk after the debate. As well they should. Because they know that they -- and much of the mainstream media -- ignored this Bush AWOL story when it was first revealed by an investigation in the Boston Globe (in 2000). The Globe said it appeared George W. Bush skipped out in the middle of his Texas Air National Guard service -- and no charges were ever brought against him. It was a damning story, and Bush has never provided any documents or evidence to refute the Globe's charges.



George W. Bush was missing for at least a 12 month period. That is an undisputed fact. If you or I did that, we would serve time.



Senator Daniel Inouye, Democrat of Hawaii and a World War II veteran, joined with Vietnam vets Sen. Max Cleland and Sen. Bob Kerrey to challenge Bush on the gaps in his military record. "The question is, where were you, Governor Bush? What would you do as commander-in-chief if someone in the National Guard did the same thing? At the least, I would have been court-martialed. At the least, I would have been placed in prison," Inouye said.



The Washington Post, the New Republic, and others also presented the evidence that Bush had fled from duty.



The most comprehensive piece I've seen was on Tom Paine.com with all the relevant links and documents.



There are far more important issues to deal with in this election year. Poor Peter Jennings. What was he doing on Fox? All that seems left of his Canadianess is the way he pronounced my name ("Michael Moooore"). The question he posed to Clark was typical of a lazy media looking for a way to distract the viewers from the real issues: the war, the economy, and the failures of the Bush administration. But if they want to really get into the issue of Bush and his "service record," then I say, bring it on! The facts are all there, including the empty flyboy suit.



Yours,



Michael Moore

[email protected]

www.michaelmoore.com



PS: This is the second time I've been thrown into a New Hampshire presidential debate. Four years ago, Republican Alan Keyes was asked why he jumped into Michael Moore's mosh pit to the music of Rage Against the Machine. Now THAT was an issue of substance!



PPS: You can read the exchange between Jennings and Clark here.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 2,055 • Replies: 21
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 12:08 pm
Here are links to the articles mentioned in this article.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/#article7

http://www.michaelmoore.com/#article1

http://www.michaelmoore.com/#article2

http://www.michaelmoore.com/#article3

http://www.michaelmoore.com/#article5

http://www.michaelmoore.com/#article6
0 Replies
 
Heywood
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 03:08 pm
Love him or hate him, you gotta admit, Moore makes some pretty strong arguments at times.

I'm glad that Wes Clark is enough of a "stand up" kind of guy to not shy away from tipping his hat to Moore and having the balls to say that he's glad that he has Moore's endorsement.

The more I learn about Clark, the more I like the guy.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 03:42 pm
I think it's kinda sad that with a political party that's been around for more than a century the US has to rely on one guy to ask the hard questions.

I read the latest book by Moore, what I really like is that the satire is peppered with both hard questions AND some practical advice. Too much of this stuff tends to be, 'Now don't you worry your pretty voter heads about this. When I'm elected, everything's gonna be right".
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 05:36 pm
Once again Moore "forgets" that his "evidence" is lacking. From the NY Times on November 3rd, 2000 after they investigated the original Boston Globe story:

Quote:
Two Democratic senators today called on Gov. George W. Bush to release his full military record to resolve doubts raised by a newspaper about whether he reported for required drills when he was in the Air National Guard in 1972 and 1973.

But a review of records by The New York Times indicated that some of those concerns may be unfounded. Documents reviewed by The Times showed that Mr. Bush served in at least 9 of the 17 months in question... On Sept. 5, 1972, Mr. Bush asked his Texas Air National Guard superiors for assignment to the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery "for the months of September, October and November." Capt. Kenneth K. Lott, chief of the personnel branch of the 187th Tactical Recon Group, told the Texas commanders that training in September had already occurred but that more training was scheduled for Oct. 7 and 8 and Nov. 4 and 5.

But Mr. Bartlett said Mr. Bush did not serve on those dates because he was involved in the Senate campaign, but he made up those dates later.

Colonel Turnipseed, who retired as a general, said in an interview that regulations allowed Guard members to miss duty as long as it was made up within the same quarter.

Mr. Bartlett pointed to a document in Mr. Bush's military records that showed credit for four days of duty ending Nov. 29 and for eight days ending Dec. 14, 1972, and, after he moved back to Houston, on dates in January, April and May. The May dates correlated with orders sent to Mr. Bush at his Houston apartment on April 23, 1973, in which Sgt. Billy B. Lamar told Mr. Bush to report for active duty on May 1-3 and May 8-10.

Another document showed that Mr. Bush served at various times from May 29, 1973, through July 30, 1973, a period of time questioned by The Globe.


Maybe that's why Clark has been so busy distancing himself from Moore's claims.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:44 am
May 27, 1968:
Bush enlists in Texas Air National Guard. Aided by Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes, he jumps over waiting list. He pledges two years of active duty and four years of reserve duty.

May 26, 1972:
Transfers to Alabama Guard unit so he can work on Senator William Blount's reelection campaign. According to his commanding officer, Bush never shows up for duty while in Alabama, nor can anyone confirm he ever serves in the Guard again.

August 1972:
Bush is grounded for missing a mandatory physical.

November 1972:
Bush returns to Houston, but never reports for Guard duty.

December 1972:
In D.C. for the holidays, Bush takes 16-year-old brother Marvin drinking and driving. Confronted by father, Bush suggests they settle it "mano a mano."

October 1, 1973:
The Air National Guard relieves Bush from commitment eight months early, allowing him to attend Harvard Business School.
0 Replies
 
CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 06:57 am
If Moore wants to help Clark he ought to shut his piehole. Everytime he opens it Clark slips further into irrelevancy. If I were Clark I'd get Charlton Heston to club him with a tire iron.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 08:47 pm
There are still lots of unanswered questions about Bush's time in the National Guard:

Quote:
After the 1972 election, Bush returned to Houston, whereupon he should have reported for duty with his unit at Ellington Air Force Base. But in May of 1973, his superiors there reported that they were unable to conduct his yearly evaluation because "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187 Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." Which he wasn't.

Finally, there is the question of whether Bush ever completed his obligations to the Guard before being discharged. In 2000, his campaign claimed that he crammed in 36 days of duty with his Houston unit during his last three months. The only evidence his team could provide, however, was a torn page listing drills performed -- with no dates and without Bush's name. But given that Bush's official records show no service whatsoever between May of 1972 and his discharge in October of 1973 (by which time he was attending Harvard Business School), one cannot conclude that there is any evidence that he satisfied the obligations of his service.


Dishonor Guard

Quote:
In his annual evaluation report, Bush's two supervising officers, Lieutenant Colonel William D. Harris Jr. and Lieutenant Colonel Jerry B. Killian, made it clear that Bush had "not been observed at" his Texas unit "during the period of report" -- the twelve month period from May 1972 through the end of April 1973.

In the comments section of this evaluation report Lieutenant Colonel Harris notes that Bush had "cleared this base on 15 May 1972, and has been performing equivalent training in a non flying role with the 187th Tac Recon Gp at Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama" (the Air National Guard Tactical Reconnaissance Group at Dannelly Air Force Base near Montgomery, Alabama).

This was incorrect. Bush didn't apply for duty at Dannelly Air Force Base until September 1972. From May until September he was in limbo, his temporary orders having been rejected. And when his orders to appear at Dannelly came through he still didn't appear. Although his instructions clearly directed Bush to report to Lieutenant Colonel William Turnipseed on the dates of "7-8 October 0730-1600, and 4-5 November 0730-1600," he never did. In interviews conducted with the Boston Globe earlier this year, both General Turnipseed and his former administration officer, Lieutenant Colonel Kenneth Lott, said that Bush never put in an appearance.


The truth about Bush's military service record

And here's a direct contradiction about a specific day mentioned in fishin's citation:

Quote:
Bush campaign aides claim, according to a report in the New York Times, that Bush in fact served a single day -- November 29,1972 -- with the Alabama unit. If this is so it means that for a period of six weeks Lieutenant George W. Bush ignored direct instructions from headquarters to report for duty. But it looks even worse for Lieutenant Bush if the memory of Turnipseed and Lott are correct and Bush never reported at all.


I'd really like to see this properly investigated and the President, who sent 500 Americans to die in a war fought over WMDs that turn out to be nonexistent, be held to account for his whereabouts during the time he obligated to serve his country.

Is there anyone who wouldn't?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 10:00 pm
PDiddie, the only folks who have "Unanswered Questions" are the folks who find the answers they've uncovered fail to support their fevered allegations. There just ain't no "There" there. The Legal Industry and The Media thrive on scandal, and the higher placed the scandal's participants, the more eagerly the hounds harry the prey. With a crumb of evidence, "Startling Exposure" series scream from front pages, documents are produced, TV and Tabloids are overflowing with "witnesses" and "highly placed sources", lawsuits are brought, and charges are filed. There's plenty of energy and emotion against Bush the Younger, there simply is no evidence to back it up. It is more than merely disingenuous to fail to realize some very powerful, very well-funded, very thorough folks have been trying with great vigor for years "To Get The Goods", with nothing more substantial than a DUI from 3 decades ago and a breathless myth cult proliferating through the internet to show for their efforts. Despite all the screaming about "red meat issues", ain't nobody produced any beef.

Here's a 45 Page (Note: hefty download)
PDF File you might find interesting as would regard some of your "unanswered questions".
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 10:36 am
Your link doesn't work for me, timber.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 01:15 pm
Sorry, PDiddie ... it seems to work fine for me, on several different machines, 2 different ISPs, and various browsers. Its about a 1.1MB PDF file, which dissects and debunks, point-by-point, that "GWB Resume" thing that's been floating around. A couple of pages are devoted to the claims regarding GWB's service record. I'll try to email you a direct link.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 02:35 pm
TheTruth wrote:
I have received a number of e-mails regarding the story that GWB was AWOL for a period of months during the Vietnam War. The story, which I believed to be mainly true, is in fact false. George W. Bush did not "go AWOL" during his time in the service.

George magazine published an article entitled "The Real Military Record of George W. Bush: Not Heroic, but Not AWOL, Either". I have included that article in the section discussing Bush's military record.

I also received a very detailed e-mail from a Navy instructor in California, who asked to remain nameless:

Unnamed Navy instructor wrote:
All the cited documents so far are an assortment of standard form letters that are found in many reserve pilots records. The "smoking gun" AWOL proof cite is actually a standard report evaluation of ANG members that have transferred during an evaluation period. Each command is required to submit an evaluation record even if the member is no longer there to keep a constant an unbroken line of evaluation. The "smoking gun" terminology of "Not observed at this station" is the exact proper wording found in any members record of evaluation during a transfer which oddly the previous cited documents actually prove was the case. This is the standard evaluation extension language used in almost all military records. For the Navy the block is listed with "Not Observed" for the Army it lists "not present for evaluation". The flight suspension letter is also a commonplace form letter suspending flying till an annual physical exam is completed.

This other "smoking gun" is such a common occurrence especially in the ANG that there are other people than George Bush listed on it using the same exact terminology.

Further investigating the documents finds that the AWOL claim is merely wishful thinking by some who simply misunderstand what the military documents say or don't know how common they really are in many service members records.

As you pointed out in your investigation in the final months of George Bush's ANG reserve commitment "when Bush decided to go to business school at Harvard in the fall of 1973, he requested and got an honorable discharge--eight months before his service was scheduled to end." The military does not and cannot by regulation, issue an Honorable Discharge to anyone that has been AWOL or otherwise seriously reprimanded as the resume tries to claim.

You can find reference citation on the Resume' claimed cites of AWOL at Bureau of Naval Personnel under the Uniform Regulations Manual and PERSNET as well the manpower regulations and report evaluation procedures.


My thanks to the e-mailers who set me straight on this matter!
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 03:40 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Sorry, PDiddie ... it seems to work fine for me, on several different machines, 2 different ISPs, and various browsers. Its about a 1.1MB PDF file, which dissects and debunks, point-by-point, that "GWB Resume" thing that's been floating around. A couple of pages are devoted to the claims regarding GWB's service record. I'll try to email you a direct link.


Please don't bother. Thank you.

I kept getting a 'javascript void' error, so I simply copied the URL into my browser.

This was a tiresome, tedious effort to exonerate the living lie that is George W. Bush by one of his more vainglorious and obscure toadies.

This is just more of the same spin of which you accuse those with whom you disagree, politically.

1. Far from an unbiased source, the author declares his love for Bush right up front.

2. Citing an anonymous source (an "unnamed Navy Instructor", as McGentrix has neatly reminded us) in this "examination" -- one who claims that those who have read the same documents simply don't understand them -- is nothing short of amateurish, unprofessional hack journalism. Except this fellow isn't even a journalist, so that makes him a plain old hack.

3. There remains a great deal of confusion over where GWB was in 1972 and 1973, and it's not been cleared up by your citation, and it has not been cleared up by the WH itself.

I suppose the damned liberal media might eventually wake up and investigate the matter to the satisfaction of us all, but I won't hold my breath. Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 03:44 pm
FactCheck , an organ of the Annenberg Project (a major benefactor of PBS, BTW, and not particularly freindly to The Current Administration), lays the AWOL charge to rest.

Here's link to an archived October 2000 article from the now defunct George Magazine, the late JFK Jr.s' foray into the world of Glitz Journalism, which does the same.

Neither source can be accused of being partisan toward Bush the Younger, or toward Republicans as a species, quite the opposite in fact; both have been scathingly critical, though FactCheck has an unsullied reputation for being scrupulous about facts. The only substance the AWOL story has is the fascination it continues to hold for the credulous Bush-Bashers more committed to agenda than to accuracy.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 04:05 pm
timberlandko wrote:
The only substance the AWOL story has is the fascination it continues to hold for the credulous Bush-Bashers more committed to agenda than to accuracy.


Wrong (and borderline-personal again, which you do so well and so often).

I can likewise cite numerous sources (and did so earlier) that are non-partisan and without axe to grind which come to a different conclusion, but you will naturally discount them because they disagree with your alignment.

"more committed to agenda"? As if you are not? Everyone (at least those who would post and read here on this topic) has an agenda. That's a weak, ineffective rebuttal.

The facts are far from clear in this matter. That's the only fact.

And you may be dismayed to be reminded that The Current Administration has a lousy track record with factual interpretation.

This matter deserves more light shined on it, because the American people deserve to know exactly what their President was doing in the last months of 1972 and the first months of 1973, when many of his generation were fighting, dying, and serving their country admirably.

I hope we can know the truth someday, but I am cynical that we will.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 05:59 pm
Nobody regularly engaged in political discussion and debate may be expected to be innocent of agenda ... that's a given. If there were not differing points of view, the exercisize could not be performed. I simply do not see how my opinion of the substance of the AWOL story can be taken as any sort of "personal". We do agree that such facts as there are should be discovered and presented. As the facts stand, no evidence, let alone proof of wrongdoing has come to light. Also, as the facts stand, I'm thoroughly unconvinced of anything other than that Bush the Younger's military career was neither distinguished nor uniquely privileged, particularly in light of the times. As I read the facts, sufficient points for contractualy satisfied separation from the obligation were accrued. 50 points were required, 50 points were accomplished. Had those points not been verified and tallied, individually, by scores of clerks, an Honorable Discharge would not have been possible, regardless whether months early or upon full satisfaction of the time component of the obligation. "Early Outs" are not uncommon, particularly when the qualified applicant is otherwise undistinguished and the military is beginning to face the prospect of downsizing. No way in hell do I applaud his record, but to my satisfaction there is nothing about it that is particularly noteworthy one way or the other. As far as the military was concerned, it just didn't pay to keep him around as things were getting tighter around the budget ... not a helluva lot different than the military's decision to not hire Howard Dean. Both were clear cost-benefit decisions. In this instance, I perceive some folks are pressing for a directed verdict, where I can see no basis for the filing of charges. I gotta say I see a lot of that. But then, I'm sceptical of evil conspiracy theorties, and their more earnest proponents, in general, and that is how I see much of the negativity directed toward Bush. It just makes no sense to me. It pretty much meets my definition of "blind and unreasoned", right there with prejudice and superstition.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 06:53 pm
timberlandko wrote:
As I read the facts, sufficient points for contractualy satisfied separation from the obligation were accrued. 50 points were required, 50 points were accomplished. Had those points not been verified and tallied, individually, by scores of clerks, an Honorable Discharge would not have been possible, regardless whether months early or upon full satisfaction of the time component of the obligation. .


Timber, I agree that we do not know the whole story yet -- and I suspect at some point in the future, we will.

But as to the comment you made in the quoted passage here -- I think you are being naive.

Strings most assuredly can be pulled -- and many have.

This MAY be another one of those cases.


The jury is still out.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 08:11 pm
The forum I read the most is composed primarily of right-wing vets - it's been interesting to read their discussions/rants on this. They're about evenly split on it. It's certainly causing a lot of heat in the woodshed.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 08:34 pm
I do understand what you're saying, Frank, and I wouldn't doubt that a word or two was dropped here and there indicating there would be no objection to Bush's early discharge. That would not be uncommon. I don't see any evidence any pressure was applied ... something far more sinister, and far more rare. To my impression, reasonable doubt more than carries against the argument as presented. There's no hero there, for sure, but no villain, either, as I see it. A scoundrel maybe, but not a villain.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2004 11:45 am
OK...this is the clearest and most even-handed summary I have located to date.

It agrees with your POV, timber.

And it sheds a tremendous amount of light (IMO) on the 'dignity and honor' restored to the White House...

Quote:
Quote:
"The importance of showing up and doing the job."

-- George W. Bush, when asked what he learned during his time in the Texas Air National Guard

There's a large controversy over George Bush's last two years of service, and the Bush campaign offered a lot of explaining and one piece of paper to account for the most egregious lapse of service records: his 1972-73 year. But while the 1972-73 and 73-74 Statements for Points Earned do show that Bush racked up the points necessary for his honorable discharge, they also expose the haphazard way that Bush did so. In fact, they reveal the exact blunt truth of how Bush described his chief lesson from the TANG.

There are two copies of 1st Lt. George Bush's SPE for the years 1972-73, the main year in question concerning Bush's military service. Both copies exhibit the same damage, but the one used by George Magazine in their exoneration of Bush's record has some handwriting explaining the page that doesn't appear on the one found at AWOLBush.com. Here's links to both:

The unaltered SPE

George Magazine's altered but more legible SPE

For an example of a complete Statement of Points Earned, check out Bush's 1973-1974 record.


Much more in tedious detail at the link, here.

And the conclusions...

Quote:
By this reckoning:

Just as the George Magazine article states, Bush had enough retirement points to maintain his Guardsman status honorably, just like he accumulated enough electoral votes to become President.

But from 26 May 72 until 28 Nov 72, Bush blew off his Guard duty to work in Winston Blount's failed Senatorial campaign. He applied for one transfer to an Kansas unit and moved before the transfer was approved (it wasn't). In September, Bush applied again for an Alabama unit and was ordered to report for duty in October. He didn't.

He also blew off his piloting license. He missed his physical, because of his own admission that he no longer "intended" to fly, this despite the years of training at government expense. Do Guardsmen get to decide unilaterally what they will and will not do in the Guard? Bush was allowed this sovereignty.

But not forever. By my reading of his record, Bush got some form of talking-to in November. He showed up for some makeup days somewhere. But all was not well in Lt. Bush's life. That Christmas, he took an underage Marvin out drinking and challenged his dad to settle their differences "mano a mano." When he sobered up from that one, he got back into a routine of attendance, getting the points he needed for the quarter.

But when Bush wandered away from regular attendance again, somebody lit a fire under his posterior. On 73 April 23, Bush was ordered to attend ACDUTRA beginning 73 May 22. He also crunched six more days of active duty into the month of 73 May, with four more inactive duty points for good measure. Further, from his 73-74 SPE, you can see George putting PAID to his Guard service. Late May, June and July are a flurry of active duty points. Finally, the last point was on record, and the last hour was served. Bush had in two months accumulated enough points to apply for an early release to attend Harvard Business School. He got it.

But he didn't even come back to sign the paper for his transfer to a non-attendance-required Denver Guard unit. The Guard tacked on an extra six months as a final door prize for Bush. But it was probably unnoticed. By that time, Lt. Bush was at Harvard, applying the lesson he'd learned at the Texas Air National Guard.


One last little bit from Bob Novak and the Capital Gang CNN transcript:

Quote:
NOVAK: See, the problem -- the problem is one of -- one of -- one of George Bush's supporters told me off the record -- I mean, not for quotation -- that the problem that the president has is he was drinking beer in Alabama when this guy (John Kerry) was -- was fighting in the war....That's a problem!
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