1
   

Kerry receives most important (to me) endorsement there is.

 
 
SealPoet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 05:12 pm
They give you a bed to sleep in with the job.

But you gotta move out when you lose the job.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 05:50 pm
Related thread:

Which Democratic candidate will/do your support?

Craven & I arent endorsing the same guy ... aaawww
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 06:13 pm
SealPoet wrote:
They give you a bed to sleep in with the job.

But you gotta move out when you lose the job.


And you dont get to sleep.

Unless you're Bush.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 06:27 pm
Mr Bush is the boy in the bubble of infotainment,
sleep is just another perk.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 07:07 pm
I dont think Kerry would stand a snowball's chance in hell against Bush, btw, which is why I hope he gets off of our radar again asap. A dissapointing margin of victory in NH and then defeat in some of the states in the South or out West in the next round should do the trick.
I dont think Kerry is electable because:

1) His campaign has stumbled all through 2003 mainly because there was (and still is) no credible overarching rationale or keynote theme to it. Perhaps it was because he was so plagued by his various flip-flops (on Iraq, No Child Left Behind, Patriot Act) that he didnt get a proper chance to sound much of a positive theme. But the only rationale he's gotten across (to me, in any case) thus far, is that he thinks he'd be a swell President, himself - and he was a hero in Vietnam.

There doesnt seem to be anything bigger than himself driving him, as there was with Gephardt (health insurance, workers rights) or Dean (grassroots activism, Iraq). Now Dean and Gephardt may have annihilated each other with all their drive, but that doesnt mean vacuousness is an alternative. I have the same problem with Clark: he and Kerry seem to be mainly in the race out of vanity. But when it comes to electability at least Clark was a general, Kerry an officer. Clark can claim exceptional, and presently relevant, expertise as well as heroism from his army time - Kerry only personal experience.

2) From what I've read - though admittably I have the disadvantage of not having a TV - he just doesnt seem to be a very sympathetic guy. From what I've understood he comes across as aloof and ... like, he's up high, he's the rich guy. He's not ordinary folk. None of them is, of course, but rule #1 of electability is that you should seem to be. I've also read too many people & posters saying they practically fall asleep when the guy speeches. Now his discreteness might play well in the north, but in the south or west?

3) He's been a senator for a liberal state for what, twenty years? There is a reason why not many experienced congressmen become presidents. There is simply too much 'dirt' to be dug up. (Dean has already started by deftly pointing out that Kerry opposed the Gulf War, but supported the Iraq war, going something like, "way I see it, that makes him wrong twice".) The Bushies will do everything to make this a populist campaign about common folk, capitalising on the smoldering culture wars, and a long stint as Mass senator makes for especially plentiful "dirt" in that context.

This point is better made by someone else: TNR pointed out that Kerry will be "hammered" ...

Quote:
for his opposition to mandatory minimum sentences for dealers who sell drugs to children and for voting against the death penalty for terrorists. They would mock his efforts to provide cash benefits to drug addicts and alcoholics, and his onetime opposition to a modest work requirement for welfare recipients. They would trash him for supporting more than half a trillion dollars in tax increases - including hikes in gas taxes and Social Security taxes on ordinary Americans - while accepting free housing and other goodies for himself from friendly influence-peddlers. They would even point out that, when Kerry served as lieutenant governor under one Michael S. Dukakis, Massachusetts famously furloughed more than 500 murderers and sex offenders under a program Kerry later defended as tough.

In fact, the article points out, they already have: "In 1996, Republican Governor William Weld ran an aggressive campaign for Kerry's Massachusetts Senate seat". "It didn't quite work. Weld was the wrong guy, 1996 was the wrong year, and Massachusetts was the wrong state for a chest-thumping, red-meat, ditch-the-wuss conservative message" - but "George W. Bush is not Bill Weld, 2004 is not 1996, and the United States most assuredly is not Massachusetts". In which context it is useful to remember that Kerry "managed to escape with a seven-point victory in a state where Bill Clinton thrashed Dole by 34 points."

I really don't think this guy is up to Bush.

link - see also here
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 08:09 pm
Not a bad reading, except for one thing: Gephardt is a tool of agribusiness. He talks a good game about certain things, but he's been bought and paid for already.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 08:53 pm
Cat. "bad joke":

Quote:
At one stop, Kerry accused Dean of “flip-flops” on major issues and said his own strength is “the consistency of my positions.”


<snorts>
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 09:24 pm
Quote:
I've not paid as much attention to Kerry as I should have been. But soley on the basis of electability I endorse Kerry now.


Does this mean I don't get to be first lady?

I was originally all for Kerry. Sort of lost interest in him (and all the rest of them!) and now I'm starting to regain interest in him.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 09:35 pm
I vote with hope and despair.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 09:37 pm
nimh wrote:
I dont think Kerry would stand a snowball's chance in hell against Bush, btw, which is why I hope he gets off of our radar again asap. A dissapointing margin of victory in NH and then defeat in some of the states in the South or out West in the next round should do the trick.
I dont think Kerry is electable because:

1) His campaign has stumbled all through 2003 mainly because there was (and still is) no credible overarching rationale or keynote theme to it. Perhaps it was because he was so plagued by his various flip-flops (on Iraq, No Child Left Behind, Patriot Act) that he didnt get a proper chance to sound much of a positive theme. But the only rationale he's gotten across (to me, in any case) thus far, is that he thinks he'd be a swell President, himself - and he was a hero in Vietnam.


The main rationale he's gotten across to me is that whatever Bush can throw at him, he has an answer for. This is firmly in AABB, but he does not bother me enough to violate the "Almost" part of it. In other words, he is far from my ideal candidate, but my ideal candidate would exactly align with me politically AND would be able to beat Bush. The latter part takes precedence, when speaking of the big four (as I consider all of them good enough to pass the "Almost" part.)

nimh wrote:
There doesnt seem to be anything bigger than himself driving him, as there was with Gephardt (health insurance, workers rights) or Dean (grassroots activism, Iraq).


Electability will drive him, big time, if it continues. How much of the Dean people thing is an upswell of activism, just plain activism, just plain, "This is not right, this needs to be stopped"? If people smell blood, sense that he can really fell Bush, that will be the drive. That's an IF, though, easily burst by a poor showing in NH.

nimh wrote:
]Now Dean and Gephardt may have annihilated each other with all their drive, but that doesnt mean vacuousness is an alternative. I have the same problem with Clark: he and Kerry seem to be mainly in the race out of vanity. But when it comes to electability at least Clark was a general, Kerry an officer. Clark can claim exceptional, and presently relevant, expertise as well as heroism from his army time - Kerry only personal experience.


I see the main thing with a military background as not having to do with expertise, per se, as much how this person would look standing next to Bush, what sorts of pointed statements they can make that Bush would have no answer for, how they could deflect with a look saying, "have you forgotten just who I am??" if he makes some sort of attempt at questioning their patriotism or toughness. Bush has been doing his very best to be the wartime president, the cowboy,the tough guy, and I welcome any opportunity to remind people that he is just an idiot in a flight suit while these guys (Kerry, Clark) are the real deal. "The real deal" being people who actually served in the military, put their lives in danger, etc. I think this is one area where Kerry's comparitive regular-guy experience -- officer vs. general -- is to his advantage, in fact. That image of him right there in the middle of the fighting, in the jungle, turning around and back into fire to save one of his men -- that's powerful stuff. That's stuff Bush doesn't have an answer for, even if it has nothing to do with being a president, per se. It's the stuff that Bush has been trying to manufacture for himself with his flight suit photo-ops, and it would be great to see him called on it.

nimh wrote:
2) From what I've read - though admittably I have the disadvantage of not having a TV - he just doesnt seem to be a very sympathetic guy. From what I've understood he comes across as aloof and ... like, he's up high, he's the rich guy. He's not ordinary folk. None of them is, of course, but rule #1 of electability is that you should seem to be. I've also read too many people & posters saying they practically fall asleep when the guy speeches. Now his discreteness might play well in the north, but in the south or west?


I think that he's growing into it. While I also haven't got a TV these days, the photos of him post-Iowa were very sympathetic. Surprised, sort of humble and genuinely happy grins, arms raised, kind of weary, looking craggy and strong, though. In the short term, Dean vs. Kerry, I think the patrician thing is to his advantage. He's more presidential. I don't think the Dems should try to out-Bush Bush, find someone even more back-slappy and nick-namey, but should try to settle the unease people feel with having such a gauche cowboy in such a powerful office. I think his whole "aloofness" can be turned to "This guy is going to take the office seriously and restore some dignity."

I dunno about his speeches. Could he really be worse than Bush, though? Gawd he's horrible. Evil or Very Mad

nimh wrote:
3) He's been a senator for a liberal state for what, twenty years? There is a reason why not many experienced congressmen become presidents. There is simply too much 'dirt' to be dug up. (Dean has already started by deftly pointing out that Kerry opposed the Gulf War, but supported the Iraq war, going something like, "way I see it, that makes him wrong twice".) The Bushies will do everything to make this a populist campaign about common folk, capitalising on the smoldering culture wars, and a long stint as Mass senator makes for especially plentiful "dirt" in that context.


Yeah. I dunno. I think that the Bushies will do everything to damage whomever is the Dem nominee, and there will be fodder for each of the big four. Having 20 years' experience is one of the least harmful types of fodder I can think of, generally speaking. Another nice contrast to the baseball team owner. I know what you mean, though.

nimh wrote:
but "George W. Bush is not Bill Weld, 2004 is not 1996, and the United States most assuredly is not Massachusetts". In which context it is useful to remember that Kerry "managed to escape with a seven-point victory in a state where Bill Clinton thrashed Dole by 34 points."

I really don't think this guy is up to Bush.


1996 WAS a very different year. Bill Clinton was in office, everyone thought he would be re-elected, things were good. People are now terrified of Bush and want to do whatever is necessary to get him out. Not all of them, of course. But I think (so far, I still may shift especially if he has a poor showing in NH) that if Kerry is the nominee, he has the best chance of showing what a buffoon Bush is and swaying those who have not already decided to vote (A)ABB. And of course he'll get the (A)ABB votes.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 09:44 pm
Kerry's a bit of a dull speaker (I do have a TV), but it could be a good contrast to Bush's stumbling staccato bluster. Sadly, it is important that whoever's debating Bush doesn't seem like they're picking on the halfwit, so speaking earnestly is important. Not being earnest, but speaking it. Think Edward would be a spectacular VP candidate: ferocious debater, charming -- can deliver the potshots that the main candidate can't afford to make. (Remembering the Bensten/Quayle debate here...)

The only candidate I've liked at all is Kucinich -- but even Clippers fans don't actually bet on the Clippers.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 09:52 pm
Good points about Edwards and debating, I didn't know that. (I still like not having a TV, on the balance, but I do feel out of the loop in a way I don't like. How people appear on TV, not just in pictures, is too huge of a factor in all of this.)
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 09:56 pm
He's very, very smooth. The guy oozes charisma. And he's got the whole family tragedy card to play, too. Dunno about the so-called Nascar dads, but surely the soccer moms could be pulled in by this handsome southern father with the tragic history and the warm smile.



Gawd I hate politics.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 10:25 pm
Eyup.

That does change my view of him a little, though. I'd had a more one-dimensional "nice guy" vibe. Smooth is a little different. Allows for some malice and steel.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 10:29 pm
As P Diddie points out, he was a trial lawyer. The teeth smile, but they can bite, too.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 11:24 pm
Interesting poll today here in Oklahoma. Clark FAR outdistanced all the rest of the Dem candidates with 23% favoring. Dean was second with 12%. Kerry only got 7%. The real key is the 24% undecided. Still plenty of time for any of them to shoot themselves in the foot, though. That's what worries me.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 11:39 pm
Me too.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 11:42 pm
pdog - I'm with you on Kucinich, I'd love to have him be president, but he doesn't have a snow-ball's chance.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 11:45 pm
Kucinich rules, the fact that he is unelectable only proves that he is the best man for the job....
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2004 11:49 pm
I like Kucinich, have watched him for decades. Now then, I think Clark can win, Kerry maybe, Edwards maybe. I am yet another ABB, oh, okay, moving to AABB. Please, some combo of Clark, Kerry, or Edwards.

Plus an enlivened press with some overview of the difficulties we face, all of us, in the world at large as well as in the presently bolluxing US. Ah, I'd like to see a wide awake press in the US and a reading public. Ok, never mind, I'd wish for vastly better TV.
0 Replies
 
 

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