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Has Humanity, as a whole, gone down the drain?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 04:44 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
When every man was his own law, then the weak were polite to the strong, the roughly even were careful around each other and the strong treated everyone else as they pleased. At least here you know where you stand with folks.


Shades of Thomas Hobbes. Have you ever read Leviathan?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 09:53 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Setanta wrote:

No, you know nothing about Greece in the period in which Hesiod lived--you've already demonstrated that. What you claim you "know" has not been proven by you, and yet you're demanding proof from me. Given that i was 61 years old yesterday, the odds are pretty good that i've been reading history, and archaeology, and paleontology, and ethnology and a good deal else in addition, for a lot longer than you have. You are delusional. Your posts are long, rambling assemblages of some bullshit you just made up on the spot, and because you can imagine it, you treat it as though it were the truth. Nothing you post convinces me that you know anything about people. You're delusional, and you're an . . .


Idiot.


No... I have pretty well figured it out... That was the phrase he coined: The Age of Iron??? That would put it some point after the Dorian invasion, about the point society was beginning to regroup, trade rather than raid, and become self conscious....

You know, the thing I most dislike about you is that you make charges without proof, and one of the charges you make is that I make long posts, which I do to give an idea of why I think what I think... Put up or shut up... I will compare my library and reading against yours any day... And I will at least try to always to give proof for my conclusions...You think what I say is bull ****... I get that much... Prove it if you can...

For your wit, let me say again: Honor was the universal concern of all ancient societies, as it is even for some people in our own age; but money devalues honor, and the great difference between a money economy and one based upon honor is that is that one having honor does not take from the honor of another but adds to the honor of ones community... Wealth divided society as honor never did, and it has put many societies down the drain... Disprove what I say or shut up your mouth...

I mentioned Ibn Khaldun... I have never read him either, but if you have his book I will be happy to burrow it... I have read a single quotation of him, and I know who he was, and what he did, and about his time...Much of what I learned (about Khaldun, and history) I learned rom a single historian: Will Durant, and I possess nearly a full set of his work, and all that I care to.... But that is just a fraction of what I have, and have read... I don't want to abuse anyone in their dotage... Perhaps you are in (and lord let me be correct in this), what Aristophanes called a second childhood, and think you are back in the sand box... I am not throwing sand, and neither are you... You would do me a favor if you could actually prove me wrong because in the process I would learn something... And, wonder of wonders; From You!!!
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 09:57 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:


An ARMED society is a POLITE society.





David
Absolutely, but it does not have to be that way... People can respect others until they find that the other is not worthy of respect instead of thinking everyone has got to earn their respect to have it... We should simply give each other that much as the minimum due...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:00 am
@Fido,
Dotage . . . that's hilarious, coming from you.

Idiot
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:19 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Fido wrote:

engineer wrote:

People were never more polite...

When every man was his own law, then the weak ...

I really botched up the quoting there. It should have been the opposite.

Fido wrote:

People were never more polite or political than their social conditions forced them to be... When every man was his own law defending his own right and honor with ready weapons people were only impolite at the risk of their lives, and so, usually polite... The society of the internet is such that some jerks who can hide behind it will cat call you to doomsday and back when they would be all smiles and good humor to your face...

When every man was his own law, then the weak were polite to the strong, the roughly even were careful around each other and the strong treated everyone else as they pleased. At least here you know where you stand with folks.

I do not believe their relationships are so easily characterized... There is a point in Greek history, as in later Germanic history where the right to immediate response to an injustice is given up for the promise of social justice, what is thought of as the social contract... In fact, society is made up of weak and strong, and when responsibility was with the group for any wrong done by an individual it would be the weak, the old, the young, and the dim witted who would soonest suffer from feud... That is where the whole notion of ethics comes in as reflecting the character of ones people, much as ethnicity does today...Looking at American Indian Society for a clue, it was within ones own community that people were free intheir behavior and actions, while outside they were very constrained... Now, children who make up a sort of criminal class think they must escape their communities to be free and they do all outside of their parents sight that they would never do within that sight...

So you do not know how you stand with anyone now, while before people had a reasonable expectation of civil treatment and honorable intercourse because honor meant so much to so many... Look at Genesis, and Abraham swearing an oath on his own nuts... Look at the expectation of Odyseus for generosity from the Cyclops... Just as with the Native Americans, if a resident fed and protected a stranger there was no need for the stranger to come armed and attack out of the night...People feuded all the time and prized peace as we cannot imagine... Feminists decry the trading of women, but people were giving wives to cement alliances... The politics of marriage today while very considerable does not amount to much compared to the politics of the past... What is an oath today??? It is harder to break a pencil than an oath...The connotation of putting your balls in the hands of the man taking your oath was huge... More than honor was at stake, but honor stood for everything for no person would be without it...A person without honor was a danger, and so was in danger...Now we put some in jail... Does that answer the general want of honor in our society???
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:21 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Fido needn't ever worry about that, he'll be doing no "ass tanning" to me. The internet is also full of loud-mouthed heroes who talk about what bad asses they are while hiding behind their monitors.
I am certain you are a pussy cat in person... And I am usually so beat up from mui tai sparing that I am not much of a threat to anyone...And from that class I have learned one important lesson... Even with a cup on you can still just about get your nuts kicked off...So, I try to be very political about to whom I give the opportunity, or shall I say: opening...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:28 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Dotage . . . that's hilarious, coming from you.

Idiot
Happy to amuse you... Did I spell it right???
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 10:32 am
You obviously have nothing to write worth reading, and haven't had throughout the thread. So i'll stop feeding the troll.

Idiot
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 11:08 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

You obviously have nothing to write worth reading, and haven't had throughout the thread. So i'll stop feeding the troll.

Idiot
I forgot my self... Happy Birthday!!!!... Thanks for not proving me wrong before leaving...You may call me an idiot as much as you like as long as you prove me right simply by not proving me wrong... Have a good year...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 06:28 am
@Setanta,
Since you cannot prove me wrong, let me try to prove myself right.. Toyenbee in my condensed version, says the difference between primitive society and civilized society is found in Mimesis, or imitation... In primitive society it is the past that is imitated, and society tends to be stagnant, though I would say: Stabile...

His words are: "In primitive societies, as we know them, mimesis is directed toward the older generation, and toward dead ancestors who stand, unseen but not unfelt, at the back of living elders, reinforcing their prestige." And: "On the other hand, in societies in the process of civilization, mimesis is directed toward creative personalities who command a following because they are pioneers."

Looking at the Quotation of Hesiod, one can easily see that the hold of respect for the old, and of respect for custom has dropped away from the people... These people, the Greeks had by then ceased to be so many scattered tribes, and had become self conscious of its nationalism among other already existing nations... Without agreeing with Toyenbee exactly, because his conclusion that society is static in a primitive form does not account for the advance of technology that make civilized society possible, still his conclusion in regard to mimesis, and to the high regard of the young for the old is true... In fact, it is a high regard of a people for itself, for their community, and for its honor that is lost with civilization... The Spartans, for example, could not evolve because they could not get over themselves, over their pride, -because being sworn to their constitution they could not break their bond with the past without proving themselves dishonorable...Were they free, they might have combined with Helots to build a distinct and conquering civilization, since all civilization are amalgram of communities, with one victor and one victim, minimum, making of the two or many a hybred society that succeeds by innovation, and fail because they become mired in the past, and cannot escape their forms...

Honor is a wonderful thing and even the worst of societies have some sense of honor down to the last relationship... What we see of all civilizations, which are money societies that grow out of the quest for wealth; is that honor, which is an absolute for primitives becomes to the civilized a relative value... There is a maxim that when one says it is not about the money, but the principal of the thing, it is about the money... Principals have to do with honor, and money makes honor relative...One finds that out of prudence, one must take a calculating mind into even the most intimate of relationship where honor should demand fidelity...Honor ceases to be taught on the mother's lap and with every relationship and becomes in Ethics a separate study for philosophers...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2011 07:58 am
@RexDraconis111,
Let me offer this quote of Hesiod: "Before the gates of excellence, the high gods have placed sweat."

All civilizations which are built upon conquest and slavery are doomed because in expecting others to sweat for them they become degraded and worthless... When worthy labor is not worth a living wages there is still a value in it, that it makes what a person knows clear to them, and keeps their honor foremost in their minds... If we think computers are going to do it all while we sit on our asses, or if we think we can export our jobs and capital, and import labor to serve us, and goods to amuse us then we are doomed and our days are already done...Spain with its conquests feuled the industrial revolution because its American Gold made money cheap... But they forbad their lords and royalty from engaging in commerce or manufacture so that all their wealth was soon exported to buy luxuries they had long lived as well without, leaving the country poor and unindustrialized...

Labor, sweat, even in the accumulation of knowledge gives one a sense of value while at the same time making the one who can learn or labor of value to his society... I have little regard for those who know much, but have little worked for it... It is difficult to find a practical aspect to much knowledge, but one should never stop looking for it... When one learns the smallest thing one should build upon it with a conclusion...You cannot give a person insight any more than ambition... One has to look for both on their own, and the more they sweat for it the more they will value it...I will always appreciate knowledgeable people at least as much as I appreciate dictionaries, but people without insight never take the measure of their knowledge, and never make of it what it could become with a little sweat, and are no better than dictionaries that know everything as well...

In my opinion, this society and this people has gone down the drain... This people was always driven by the criminals and failures from other societies, and the universal low regard for life and of humanity has been a common theme from the beginning among our immigrants... But laziness has been our common quality in later generations... We need quality control because so few find value in excellence, and it is because their jobs are forced on them at low wages, and they are over worked for their underpay, and their jobs are made emotionally stifling, uninspiring, and meaningless... Laziness is the front side of hopelessness... People cannot care because they are not paid enough to care even for themselves... In the land of the free, slavery has decended upon us, and we have no choice but to accept our condition...
0 Replies
 
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2011 10:38 am
@OmSigDAVID,
@ OmSigDAVID quote: "With the fullness of respect, I suggest that u enjoy life
as much as u possibly can, under all circumstances."
What a load of garbage. How does a child at school enjoy life while being bullied? And what about people in the workplace harassed and stressed.. how do they enjoy life under those circumstances?
Which side are you on.. good or evil?
The only way to go for humane people is to help expose evil and the way evil ie inhumane people operate and bring them down. Then the humane can enjoy their life.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2011 11:53 am
@kYRANI,
kYRANI wrote:
@ OmSigDAVID quote: "With the fullness of respect, I suggest that u enjoy life
as much as u possibly can, under all circumstances."
What a load of garbage.
My correct quote, in better context was:
DAVID wrote:
I suggest that everyone be prepared
to defend himself
from the "slings and arrows" of diverse experience
in an unpredictable world. With the fullness of respect, I suggest that u enjoy life
as much as u possibly can, under all circumstances.[Emfasis is added here to David, by David.]




kYRANI wrote:
How does a child at school enjoy life while being bullied?
Maybe by good vengeance?? Maybe by calling the police, if a crime were committed by the bully?
Maybe by applying some creative, clever thawt (not thought) to rectify the situation?
The best response depends on the exact factual circumstances.






kYRANI wrote:
And what about people in the workplace harassed and stressed..
how do they enjoy life under those circumstances?
Wine, women & song??
Each remedy is custom fit for its problem.
U tacitly request a panacea (a remedy for ALL ills).



kYRANI wrote:
Which side are you on.. good or evil?
Good is better.



kYRANI wrote:
The only way to go for humane people is to help expose evil
and the way evil ie inhumane people operate
OK.



kYRANI wrote:
and bring them down. Then the humane can enjoy their life.
Well, we don 't necessarily have to wait that long.
I did not wait until the nazis nor the commies were brawt (not brought) down
to start enjoying life. That 's a good thing, too, because it took a while.





David
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2011 12:03 pm
@kYRANI,
The problem is not simply that we do not, and perhaps cannot prevent harrassment, but that violence in response is not permitted at all... We used to be a land that said it is not the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog... People can say things to each other today that would get their faces knocked off in my generation, and the teachers in school actually encourage bad behavior because they know when people clique, and can clique with others their success in life is assured, and their job is easier because once the have the leader of the clique they have the followers as well... It is the odd balls, the different drummer marchers, and the hard corp individualists who present the most problem to teachers because each of them should have what no school system can afford, and that is an individual approach to education...

Schools preach individualism, and to an extent even encourage it, but the hatred of individualism goes right to the bone... Get back in line, speak my mind, be on time, be not unkind... Kids are nothing but so many howling monkeys only more happy to see one of their own fall from the tree... They are not expected to get the larger picture, that this people will rise or fall together, and that no one should be left behind or thrown overboard... If anyone has time to harrass others they ought to be put to work helping the younger kids to achieve to their potential...But human and social obligation is consistently denied from the top down... How can children be made to accept what clearly no one accepts???
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2011 12:56 pm
@Fido,
Firstly I said nothing about violence as a solution.. I said EXPOSURE of the evil people's methods. Individuals are mobbed, whether at school or at work or in social settings. However the violence is not obvious. No they don't get their heads kicking.. they get severe stress and disease instead and in some cases it leads to an untimely death! As for the teachers and the students, it is not that clear cut. As anyone who has been bullied at school will tell you, not all the teachers are on the side of justice. There are nasties among them. Teachers who take the bullies side. The student that is bullied at school often doesn't have relief. As for getting the harassers to help others.. YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING. If they had any sense of decency they wouldn't be harassers. These kids and the teachers that support them are without decency and have no desire to help another person, not even if they were forced. We have to make the changes by not accepting corruption. The problem is most people shrug their shoulders and say oh well politicians are all corrupt anyway and thereby do nothing. THAT is the problem.
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2011 01:22 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Your quote has two parts so the first part was as you pointed out..
I suggest that everyone be prepared to defend himself from the "slings and arrows" of diverse experience in an unpredictable world.
What we are facing increasingly in the world today are hidden evil gangs. We see people being stressed from the school setting through to workplaces, in the home and right to old age. And diseases are spiralling out of control. It won't be long, if things continue at this pace, when everyone can expect to be born sick, live sick and die an untimely death. And that we are told is due to diet and lifestyle. It's not. It is due to violence that is done by networks of two-faced people that gang up on single individuals and use methods that are devious. If we continue to expect that everyone should defend themselves and if they do then we'll all be okay then we are deluding ourselves. Unless good people, (and by good people I don't mean perfect people that are sinless, I mean people who respect an unwritten moral law, who support justice) come together as a united force to fight against the evil we can never hope to sustain our freedoms and our democcracies. We are already seeing the writing on the wall of the end of democracy. In Europe it is apparent that outside forces, "investors" and financiers etc., are calling the shots as to what a countries government can and cannot do. And it won't be long before the United States's democracy will also crumble. If faceless others can tell us how we are to spend our money then we have no voice and when we have no voice we are no longer self-governing. The problem of evil that we face in the world today is immense and it can't be conquered while ever we remain separate, each having to look after themselves.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2011 03:52 pm
@kYRANI,
Please note that we have never had a democracy in the USA,
tho we did in some towns during the Colonial period.





David
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2011 08:09 am
@kYRANI,
kYRANI wrote:

Firstly I said nothing about violence as a solution.. I said EXPOSURE of the evil people's methods. Individuals are mobbed, whether at school or at work or in social settings. However the violence is not obvious. No they don't get their heads kicking.. they get severe stress and disease instead and in some cases it leads to an untimely death! As for the teachers and the students, it is not that clear cut. As anyone who has been bullied at school will tell you, not all the teachers are on the side of justice. There are nasties among them. Teachers who take the bullies side. The student that is bullied at school often doesn't have relief. As for getting the harassers to help others.. YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING. If they had any sense of decency they wouldn't be harassers. These kids and the teachers that support them are without decency and have no desire to help another person, not even if they were forced. We have to make the changes by not accepting corruption. The problem is most people shrug their shoulders and say oh well politicians are all corrupt anyway and thereby do nothing. THAT is the problem.
Agreed... I said violence was a solution... In olden days and in many places in the world, you could not freely abuse anyone without that person coming out with a knife or a gun, and it is upon such violent behavior that all polite behavior is predicated... But when law forces a certain situation, in this case, politeness or respect, it only goes so far as law, which is beyond the sight of authority... Primitives all carried law in their hands, and to abuse some one was to take something essential from them that they could no live without: their honor...We are forced to live without honor thinking money or power is some fair substitute... Children have no notion of it, and I have seen where children who are not abused for being black would abuse another child for being slow, or otherwise different... Parents are seen as having little control since their own children can appeal against them in court, but then, parents are little damned or dishonored by the behavior of their little miscreants... Law has destroyed community cohesion, but has not brought peace because it has not delivered justice... Since it does not work but badly, the more law one has the more law one needs until society is nothing more than a police state where the biggest criminals are the cops because they have no law and are the law...

And the cost of supporting law which does not deliver justice drains the vitality out of society, and it destroys many individual who do not have the justice each of us finds essential, and denied justice they are denied happiness and life... That is how societies put themselves down the toilet...It is equally bad when each is left to a defense of their own honor as many are yet today because the whole progress of society is slow and halting... We need law to have peace and progress, but peace alone without justice is not worth spit... It is the cost of keeping peace without justice that has broken many societies and brought on revolt or war, so that all progress and the general blessings of progress are lost to pain, terror, and injury...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2011 08:21 am
@kYRANI,
kYRANI wrote:

Your quote has two parts so the first part was as you pointed out..
I suggest that everyone be prepared to defend himself from the "slings and arrows" of diverse experience in an unpredictable world.
What we are facing increasingly in the world today are hidden evil gangs. We see people being stressed from the school setting through to workplaces, in the home and right to old age. And diseases are spiralling out of control. It won't be long, if things continue at this pace, when everyone can expect to be born sick, live sick and die an untimely death. And that we are told is due to diet and lifestyle. It's not. It is due to violence that is done by networks of two-faced people that gang up on single individuals and use methods that are devious. If we continue to expect that everyone should defend themselves and if they do then we'll all be okay then we are deluding ourselves. Unless good people, (and by good people I don't mean perfect people that are sinless, I mean people who respect an unwritten moral law, who support justice) come together as a united force to fight against the evil we can never hope to sustain our freedoms and our democcracies. We are already seeing the writing on the wall of the end of democracy. In Europe it is apparent that outside forces, "investors" and financiers etc., are calling the shots as to what a countries government can and cannot do. And it won't be long before the United States's democracy will also crumble. If faceless others can tell us how we are to spend our money then we have no voice and when we have no voice we are no longer self-governing. The problem of evil that we face in the world today is immense and it can't be conquered while ever we remain separate, each having to look after themselves.
People are joining gangs and looking out for themselves because they cannot count on society, or law, or their non existent communities to look to their defense... Such behavior has a good name: Tribalism... People form their own relationships to defend their own communities for themselves because the law and the police cannot, or wont... In the west we do not have an absolute right to justice... People have a right to peace, the to the expectation of justice, but the reality is, that once the cops have delivered the peace, their job is done... Peace is essential to technological progress, but progress is not enough to deliver justice... Capitalism which is legal injustice has brought much progress, but the benefit of that injustice is not shared... The cutting edge of technology is used to distract people, to survail people, to imprison people, or to annhilate people... That which cannot hold a price tag, no matter how much it is needed is considered worthless...Progress is empty of promise so long as it holds no justice..
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2011 08:23 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Please note that we have never had a democracy in the USA,
tho we did in some towns during the Colonial period.





David
The Iroquois had democracy before the English had a Parlement...
0 Replies
 
 

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